To answer the question:
Any Catholics who actually worship Mary are either ignorant of, or disregarding, the teaching of the Church.

Peace,
+Nathan

Then what it is called when one prays to Mary rather to Christ? If anything takes the place or is put before God, is that not worship of that thing or person?

What about the perpetual virginity of Mary? I understand that the Hebrew and Aramaic do not offer a word for "cousin" and therefore the same word used for a biological brother is also used for a cousin. However, it is also my understanding that the Greek word referenced when Jesus refers to "brother" literally means "from the womb". Can someone help me to understand this concept of Mary a little further?

Great question, Kevin.

Since you are baptised into Jesus (Rom.6), His mother is your mother. (This explains John 19 with John) The blessed Mother, your Mother (Rev. 12:17) is in the Throneroom of Jesus (Rev. 4). She and the other Saints there are joining in with Jesus interceding for us here. The prayers to her and the Saints is that she pray for us. She, like the angels of the Revelation, delivers our prayers to the feet of Jesus who then petitions the Father. It is that simple. We should never bow to Mary as to a Goddess. She is what she is because of Jesus.

There are two words in Greek for worship, "dulia" and "latria". Both have the understanding of declaring "worth" which is why we call it worship or worth-ship. They also carry the idea of "kissing toward". When you bow down to kiss, it is to express your gratitude, praise and respect to he or she whom you kiss. (your spouse, children or parents) You are worthy of me placing my lips against. You are clean! You are good! Christians for 2000 years, including the Reformers, have offered dulia to Mary. This is prayers and praise for her position placed on her by Jesus. Catholics can accurately be accused of Mariadulia, which is declaring the good or worth-ship of Mary and giving here honor where honor is due, as St Paul commanded. Protestant preacher Tony Campolo says, "While humans are unworthy we are not worthless" It is just that any goodness in us is due to the image of God we reflect. We were made in His image.

Moses in the Law commanded youth to rise in the presence of the elders (presbuteros/ priests) and elderly, ie. our grandparents. They would then kneel down and kiss them.

Abraham did so with the angels and Melchizedek before Moses came along.

We have a custom of rising when an elder enters our rooms and rising when they leave. We do the same at the dinner table when a lady enters, especially our mothers or wives. We tip our hats to ladies here in Texas. We kiss our mothers and our wives. Some cultures kiss their brothers and friends cheeks as in Jesus' day. Seven times the NT says to greet one another with a holy kiss. These are expressions of dulia.

However, Latria is ONLY for the Holy Trinity. The Holy Trinity is worthy and Whose worth is intrinsic and organic. You should not look at anyone or anything as being worthy or good by their own virtue or power. Only God is good-it is what He is. He didn't acquire it. He alone is ominscience, omnipotent and omnipresent. Mary is not. He has the power to give and take life. Mary does not.

So I can burn candles before statues of saints, bow before, kneel to, kiss, declare praise and worth, hug and show other forms of affection to images and people but ONLY God can get your utter obedience because He is God. Obedience is the WORSHIP God desires and decrees. To obey is better than praise! Obedience and not these others. These others are simple reminders for our sake- they are for us. Our songs are good. Our prayers are great. But the ONLY thing that cries out is Blood. The Blood of Jesus that cries for greater things than Abels. The Body and Blood of Jesus is the ULTIMATE Praise (Eucharist) and the only real worship. This is all God wants, the OBEDIENCE of His Son even unto death. This is what pleased Him. (Is. 53) All we can really do is say, "Thank You, Jesus!" and mean it. The way we say this is in the "Great Amen" in the Divine Liturgy. Although we were unworthy and deserved curses, He became the Curse for us. He took them and we say, "Amen! Amen!" (Deu. 28) In the Sacraments we are saying, "Amen!" In our lifestyles of obedience we say, "Thank You!"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since Mary is your Mom, you should honor your parents so that you live long and have a good life (Eph.6). Remember, you are honoring Jesus' Mama too. Wouldn't He have honored His mother? Of course! He gave her a seat by His throne.

Why ask Mary or any Saints to pray for us? Simple. James tells us, "The effectual, fervant prayer of a righteous person avails much." If we believe in the Communion of Saints based on the Creeds and Hebrews 11,12 then we know they are alive and we can pray for our loved ones who have died in the faith. Also we can have those who were righteous and in Heaven after living a saintly life here. Their prayers are effectual and fervant and avail much.

What has made the Saints such is the Holy Spirit in their lives all their days. They died in the faith. Will that be said of us? If a miracle can be attributed to their intercession, as with Mary's, then this tells the Church that they are in the Throneroom and not in Abraham's bosom any longer. Since Mary's body was assumed into Heaven there was no need for any other miracle to prove it and the Church has accepted Her there. In fact, we have an eyewitness: her caretaker/ adopted son, John, said He saw her in Heaven Rev. 11:19, 12:1.

Now let us look at the "Hail Mary!":

We repeat what the Angel Gabriel said,
"Hail Mary! ("Hail!" is the root of our "Hello!")
Full of Grace! The Lord is with you.(This is only used for one other person, Jesus. See John 1. Mary's fullness is due to the Holy Spirit preparing her as the Ark of the Covenant, who holds the Word of God, and the New Eve, according to the Early Church)"

We repeat what Mary's cousin Elizabeth said,
"Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb..." (The Church added the name of the fruit, Jesus!)

We repeat what St Dominic added,"
Holy Mary, Mother of God. (He based this on the declaration of Mary as the Theotokos in the 3rd Ecumenical Council)
Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death." (This isn't uncommon from the prayer you'd ask of your own earthly mother.)
Amen.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm

Jesus spoke in Aramaic. Years later, the Gospels were transcribed in Greek. To get at the root of what Jesus said, read the Peshitta http://www.peshitta.org/

Also, this may help:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Mary_Ever_Virgin.asp[/URL]

Let us know what you are struggling with. As converts, we have been there, brother.

I once asked, "What about Matthew 1:24-25, 'When Joseph awoke, he did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took his wife into his home. He had no relations with her until she bore her firstborn, and he named him Jesus.'?"

To me, this implied she had relations with Joseph after Jesus was born. But then I saw "until" used in other places.

See 2 Samuel 6:23; Hebrews 1:13 and Timothy 4:13. It just basically means "up to" but makes no statement about what happened afterwards.

How about the issue with "firstborn"? Consistent with Tradition and Scripture, you cannot assume there was a second born. "Firstborn" always just means they are the first child ever regardless if there was a second or third etc. It is still like this in the Eastern cultures.

I don't know if this helps anyone else, but one of the telling points about the Perpetual Virginity comes from John's Gospel where Jesus commends Mary into the safekeeping of John. If Jesus had biological half-brothers through Mary, one of them would have had the responsibility. Likewise, if the "brothers of Jesus" refer to children of Joseph, widowed from an earlier marriage (as some in the Early Church thought) they would have had no responsibility for Mary -- because she would not have had any biological relationship with them.

Just a thought . . .

Great points, David!

Ya know what guys,.. I think Ken lives in a 36 hour day! How do you pack it all in???? And I wonder why I keep reading this forum ;) ,..answers to questions I haven't asked yet, its here if you look, Thanks for your time & effort, from one, it is well appreciated!!

Roy

I am reading an excellent book called, "The Prayer of Mary" by Keith Fournier (published by Nelson, surprisingly enough!).

My $.02 worth!

FYI-
Dcn. Keith Fournier and former Abp Sly are good friends and Keith has been instrumental in his transitioning into the Catholic Church.

While purchasing the book several months ago (before leaving the CEC), I noticed that one of the quotes on the back cover was from Randolph Sly. This was one of the reasons I went ahead and bought it. We contacted Abp. Sly at that time, and he highly recommended the book.

It is a rich, inspiring book. Dcn. Fournier would seem to be just the kind of man one would want to walk alongside them, as they are making the journey to Rome!

Kevin:

Not being Roman Catholic (yet) perhaps I can take a stab at this and help.

I always had a problem with RC "praying" to Mary as well, until I went to seminary in the CEC and started learning "actual" theology from a historic perspective (rather than heresay from my own perspective). It is there that I finally came to grips wirth the "great cloud of witnesses" as well.

We have to start at the point of belief in Jesus and the promise of eternal life. If you believe in that, then the next step is what is eternal life?

Consider the fact that God is outside of finite time.

Remember creation: time did not exist until God created the sun and the moon and the night and the day.

If it is true then that God is outside of the concept of time (indeed He createed it), then eternal life also has to be outside of time, otherwise it would not be eternal.

If eternal life is outside of time, then those that have died in Christ are with Christ and therefore? Outside of time.

This also means they are alive with Christ in eternal life as promised by Jesus.

If it is then true that they are "alive" eternally, and this is outside of time (as we know it), then they are with Jesus...and are with us as "the great cloud of witnesses as Paul describes them.

Mary is in the "Great Cloud of Witnesses" in a more prominent place than all the rest since she is more honored than all women. She has a special place (indeed always has had a special place) in the kingdom as mother of our Savior.

Okay we have now established the "alive in Christ" who have died and gone before us as well as the temporal (finite time) issue.

Now we move to the interceding.

Do you ever ask anyone here on the earth for prayer? Or do you keep all your needs to yourself? Do you ever ask a priest or pastor to pray for you? Your mother? (etc., etc. etc.)

If you ask brothers or sisters who are alive temporally (here and now) to pray for you, and if the saints (believers) who have died in Christ are indeed alive eternally with Christ (outside of our temporal state and time), why can't you ask them to pray for you as well? It is not praying TO them so much as it is ASKING for thier prayers and intercessions.

It is only when we expect a saint to SAVE us and to convey us to eternal life that it becomes idolatry or worship.

From all my experience in RC worship, this is not the case. It seems to get close sometimes, but does not tip over to that.

Hope this tidbit from a feeble mind helps a little.

Blessings+

Here is another thought, one that seems to be oftern overlooked.

Prayer is not a 'to', it is a 'with.' Why? Because prayer is a conversation, not a dialog. It is two way, speaking and listening. The problem most of us have is too much talking and no listening.

We ask Our Mother to help us, not to do it herself, but to ask Her Son to help us.


It is like asking our earthly mom to ask our earthly dad to do something for us.

We ask Mary to pray 'with us and for us.' Just like we ask someone here on earth to do the same. She just happens to be 'closer to the source.'

blessings,

nell

This is the reason God gave us two ears and one mouth so that we would listen twice as much as we speak.

Good one Nell.

Pax.

I understand what you've all said. And I totally agree with the doctrinal issue.

However, I have noticed that, in practice, many Catholics seem to be almost obsessed with Mary. I would rather see people obsessed with knowing Christ, and Him crucified. Others have said that "the better you know Mary, the better you will know Christ". I see the validity of that. However, I still see that Scripture teaches to "know Christ".

Can anyone help me out here? I love Mary, and honor her, and ask her prayers. But Christ should still be the object of my passion.

Am I missing something here?? :(

TS,
CCR leader Ralph Martin says, "Anyone who puts Mary above or before Jesus has never had an encounter with her Son."

There are too many Catholics who simply are misinformed or misguided, they KNOW Jesus is the source of all power and authority but feel unworthy to approach Him directly. This was a beautiful revelation for many during of the Charismatic renewal in the Church. It is also one reason there is an Evangelical renewal and that folks like you, me and this forum exist for such a time as this. We are sacramental reminders to our elder siblings of the Gospel.

Mary points us to her Son. Mary is the moon that reflects the light of the Son, who is the Sun and Light of the World. (Rev. 12:1)

Let me stir the pot a bit here.

For the last seven years, I have refrained from addressing Mary as the "Spouse of the Holy Spirit" until I have had time to research this. That time has not come until perhaps now.

What do you all think? Is Mary the Spouse of the Holy Spirit? I am uncomfortable with this now but I am teachable.

Ken

My friend, I think I would respond by saying,.. no,.. Mary is NOT the spouse of The Holy Spirit. While she is the Holy Mother of Jesus, to say such would "add" a member to the Holy Trinity, would it not? This opinion is of course without seminary training and even without a "strong" Biblical knowledge.

On the day of Pentecost, the Spirit of The Lord descended... isn't that how it is stated? If that is so, I don't see where the Mother of Jesus would be included.

Also, we worship Jesus as Lord and Saviour, so far my teachings in RCIA tell me, while we pray to the Blessed Mother to intercede for us with The Son, we do not pray to Mary. If we did, would that not then be idolatry?

Just checking my teacher,.. just checking...

Blessings & Peace

Roy

Thanks, Roy! Have you heard of her referred to as such?

I had never heard the phrase "Spouse of the Holy Spirit" until you posted it here, Ken. And then, lo and behold, at RCIA this past Wednesday, we had a guest speaker. He spoke solely on Mary and who she is, etc. This was one way he described her. I'm still not comfortable with it.

He did point out that the only things we HAVE to believe about Mary are those things which are Church dogma. However, he sure gave a long diatribe on why prayers to Mary are necessary. He even quoted a saint (I wish I could remember the saint's name...it was from a book written by him) who basically said that praying to Mary is better than praying to Jesus. Why? Because Jesus doesn't have a soft mother-heart. He's "harder" on us than she would be. I'm sorry, but the Bible never once mentions that! I agree that asking saints, including the Blessed Virgin, to pray for us, is a wonderful part of the communion of the saints. But to say that praying to one of them is better than praying to Jesus!? Sorry. Can't buy it.

I thought all of this was a bit much for an RCIA class, anyway. But that's only my opinion.

How Mary became the 'Spouse of the Holy Spirit.'

"I believe in God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth.

and in Jesus Christ, His Only Son, our Lord, who was concieved by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary...."

The act of conception is what makes Mary the 'Spouse of the Holy Spirit'

In the Jewish tradition, a Man and Woman are 'espoused' or engaged to be married if you will. When the final ceremonies are complete and the Man takes the Woman in to his home, she becomes his 'spouse.'

This is 'technically speaking' what happened with Mary. She was a Virgin, and remains always a Virgin, yet she conceive a child 'by the power of the Holy Spirit coming upon her.' That was the 'congugal act of marriage.'

Even today, unless a marriage is 'consumated' it is not yet a true marriage.

I hope this helps. Holy Mary is one of my favorite subjects. She is the Daughter of the Father, Mother of the Son and Spouse of the Holy Spirit all at the same time. Is it any wonder that her prayers are always heard?

blessings,

nell

Now that'll preach Nell, that will preach as my friend Randy would say.

One of the situations we face in the Church today is that was have , in many ways, become so used to the Creeds we really do not realise thier importance.
We talk about them, we say them, but we do not often "do the theology' of them, of better, know the Theology contained within them.
The creed didn't happen over night and there is a great deal more there than first meets the eyes.

Well, gotta run back to work.

My love to you all,
in HIM,
Fr. Rusty

(p.s.-isn't it nice to discuss something other than the C.E.C issues?)

Thanks TS and Nell! That will give Roy and I some things to think about.

Good points on the Creeds, Fr Rusty!

I'm going to throw a monkey wrench, albiet a small one, into this theory. I looked up the word conjugal and in all its definitions it relates to "marriage", being married, etc.. The consumation of marriage is the acting of uniting through sex. So while Mary was conceived, she remained virgin, therefore the marriage was not consumated. If this would be so, then can the Holy Spirit be called "spouse"?

Please understand, I am not attacking the Blessed Mother, just the theory of these words and their use. ;)


Roy

Roy, first of all, I am not speaking of 'Mary being concieved ' but of Jesus being concieved through the power of the Holy Spirit.'

We read in the Scripture where the Angel Gabriel told Mary in explaination of her question of "how can this be since I have no relations with a man?"

"And the Angel said to her: The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God."

You are correct in your 'human' definitions of marriage. Look to the Spiritual and you will see the correlation. The conjugal act is pretty specific as is the consumation act and both obviously belong to marriage.

The Son of God could not be 'physically' concieved in Mary's womb but only by the very mysterious and 'spiritual power' of the Holy Spirit. But the consummation of that Union was indeed 'marital' in that it produced a conception of a child.
Jesus, the Son of God (the Father), was now through the work of the 'Spiritual Spouse' (the Holy Spirit) the Son of Mary.

From the very Moment that she gave her 'fiat', she became the Spouse of the Holy Spirit as she said: "I am the Handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word."

Yes, Roy, it is mystery, it is most Spiritual, it is amazing, it is giving me goose bumps just to think about it. But keep this in mind as well.

The Angel Gabriel also reminded Mary that "with God, all things are possible."

And so her marriage to God the Holy Spirit was 'consumated.'

prayerfully,

nell

Nell,

We seem to be the only "game in town" on the forum, so let me simply add this,.. if the Trinity is; God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, how then can we separate God the Holy Spirit and call Him spouse??

I do not believe we are debating Christian theology here, simply semantics. I know we love the Father, Son & Holy Spirit, and maybe I'm simply trying to gather thoughts & expressions.

There is a concern with me that if we raise Mary so very high that "we" may begin to worship her, and I believe this is already happening within the Catholic faith, rather than depend upon her to intercede with the Father & the Son on our behalf.

The mystery is a Blessing to us, I hope we never displace it with the interpretation of words....


Roy

Roy, that is indeed a very good question and one that needs to be addressed.

Since we do belive in the Trinity as One God in Three Persons, we know and accept that each of these three persons is active in a different way from the other two while still being in 'unison' with the others. A good friend of mine said this very well recently so let me use his words.

He was describing a dream where he was seeing Heaven 'in his minds eye' and as he walked, saw three figures coming toward him. One was Father God bathed in light so very bright that he could see only his feet. One was Jesus the Christ. He said he knew that because he told him so. The third was simply Mary and that he knew her by her smile.

Mary spoke saying she had brought the answers to his prayers.

Then, he heard a voice, the voice from three sources, Father God, Jesus, and from the third from within. He said that The Trinity always speaks in unison. I found that an important and reinforcing key for me. Why? Because Roy, while each person in the Trinity acts, all three are always in Unity, of thought, word and deed.

Let me again use the Creed to illustrate how we speak about them.

I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth

The Father's action is 'Creator"

I believe in Jesus Christ, His Only Begotten Son, who for us men and for our Salvation came down from heaven and became Man.

The action of the Son of God is two fold: Redeemer and Intercessor

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life.

The action of the Holy Spirit is literally 'to give life.'

At the same time, all three persons are in absolute consent to any and all of these actions. Again, mystery of mysteries...how can it be...our human minds cannot ever fully comprehend, so only by Faith, the gift and grace from God who is One in Three Divine Persons.

Now, as for Mary, she merits by her actions and cooperation with the grace of God working in her more than any other created being will ever possibly obtain. That is why she a human like us is seen by many of us as the great intercessor next in powerful intercession, only to Jesus her Son, Son of the Most High, himself.

Roy, the absolute wonder of it all is that we will never completely be able to understand fully any of this. We only have been given the capacity to Love God by Faith and thank him for all He continually does for us.

By the way, are you still praying your Rosary? I think I would like to make one for you if you are still doing so.

In the mean time, keep your 'wondering heart' busy because seeking is what God asks of us. He doesn't want 'blind followers.' He wants us to be empowered by the Truth taught to us through the work of the Holy Spirit in us. Holy Spirit God teaches us about the Son, and when we know the Son, we also know the Father.

But, Mary always points to her Son as well, never to herself.

May your time of worship today be filled with great joy...a time of anticipation.
Prayers for your journey,

nell

And Roy, you concern is valid in not raising her above God, for she is not God, merely the highest of all human creation. As such we revere her, we praise her actions, we love her for the gift she gave to us all...because without that YES, we have would have no redemption...it was that cooperation with God's plan that made it possible for The Son of God to become the Son of Man.

O higher than the cherubim
More glorious than the seraphim
Lead their praises, Alleluia.
Thou bearer of the Eternal Word
Most gracious, magnify the Lord
Alleluia, alleluia, alleluia, alleluia, alleluia!

We have an enormous Hispanic community in our parish -- and today is the Sunday closest to the Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe. The rejoicing and festivities have already begun -- and will continue through until Tuesday.

It is a blessing and a joy to behold.

Our Lady of Guadalupe, Patron of the Americas, pray for us.

Yes, this can be a problem, especially among some Third World cultures. We do need to strictly distinguish between "worship" and "respect" or even "veneration".

The Fathers used the word "latria" to define the worship due God alone. They used the word "dulia" to define the respect and veneration due the saints, and they used the term "hyper-dulia" to define the singular place of "hyper-respect" due to Mary.

I have always tended to the notion that the error of "too much" respect was better than the error of "not enough" respect. Some of our more fundamentalist brothers and sisters, in an attempt to avoid any appearance of "papism" or "romanism" have said some truly shocking things about Mary.

Me, I would not like to appear before the Great Throne of Judgment only to see an angel come up and whisper something in Jesus' ear -- and then have Him turn and look at me and say "You said WHAT about My Mother? You want to repeat that to My Face?" :(

Rather, I would prefer that Jesus say to me (borrowing from the Servant of God Fulton Sheen) "Ah, yes, David -- I've heard My Mother speak well of you." :)

Blessings on this glorious 2nd Sunday of Advent!

Nell,

As Fr Rusty said a few posts ago,.. now that will preach! Thank you for your loving reply!! I tried answering before church but the computer was acting up,.. I see Fr David has joined in... Blessings to all this day! :)

Roy

Thanks to Nell, Roy, and David Z. for your thoughts and explanations. I'm still rolling it around in my spirit. Thank you all, though.

Hello,

I am new to this forum, but have been reading it on and off for quite some time. I appreciate the give and take and broad perspectives that are here. It also seems there are a number that are, or are becoming, Catholic. I am in the midst of becoming Catholic. This thread interests me because it is the most difficult part of the faith to grasp- mariology.

I was doing some reading and read about the idea that Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces. This seems a bit steep, and I can't recall anything in the catechism that specifically says this, although the article in question gave a number of quotes from Popes through the ages. Can anyone give me some insight here? Is this a teaching of the Church, or the opinion of some within it?

Thanks!

Patrick,

The Catechism says, CCC969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."

http://www.scborromeo.org/papers/mediator.PDF
http://catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0170.html
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9211fea3.asp
http://www.catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp

In the early part of this millenium, there was a push (by Fr Mark Miravelle?) to call Mary the Co-Redemptrix. However the Vatican said that now was not the time for this declaration. However there has never and will never be an effort to deify Mary. I think it is critical to read anything on these topics in the context that the Church receives them in order to properly understand them. Unless one does this, very serious misunderstandings will occur.

Mary is what she is because of Jesus. The grace she has is the same we have, yet she has the fulness according to the angelic announcement recorded in the Gospels. It is inorganic. Her intercession is not between us and the Father, it is between us and Jesus who takes our requests to the Father. When we pray through Mary, the angels still carry our requests to Jesus. When Mary prays for us, it is the effectual fervant prayers of a righteous one that avails much (James).

So why call her "Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix"?

Because she is, but by virtue of Jesus saving grace.

For example, we are called Christians. Christian literally means "little Christs". We are not a 'christ' apart from Jesus but, as C.S. Lewis put it, “God looks at you as if you were a little Christ: Christ stands beside you to turn you into one.”

Mary is mediator because of Jesus just as we are Christians because of Him.

Let's look at what St Paul told St Timothy, "I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.

Looking at what I bolded, you see that when God is mentioned here it is speaking, as we often do, of God the Father because it specifically separated the title Jesus from God. Of course, the Three are One. But in the economy of God, they have different functions. Mary is a mediator between us and the Son but not to the Father. (I could be wrong)

Queen Mary, as the King's Mother, has a prominent place in the Kingdom but her authority is only given her by the King.

Welcome home, brother!

Hello Folks,

Sorry to be away so long, but have been busy.

Patrick,

Might I suggest you look up the word Matrix in the dictionary. As Christ has many names in the scriptures so too does the Church bestow many names upon our Blessed Mother Mary. Look up the word and then look at all of those names that are floating out there like co-redemptrix, mediatrix, they all end in trix. After you read, pray about it. From the Webster's dictionary is where I had these questions answered for me. I am not going to give it to you, you have to do the work.

Those who speak of the Blessed Virgin usually start by saying yeah I love the Blessed Virgin, she is so and so, she is wonderful, BUT she is not.....

When one comes to the place of seeing what God has bestowed upon her, she, in being the divine yes to the Angel's, which is really God's question, she has become a part in God's plan of salvation and redemption. When one begins to see her in the light of Divine Grace the BUTS, fall away. She is what she is, she is what God has made her to be. One can deny it or accept it.

I come from a church that barely even drug her out at Christmas, that only because it was necessary for Him (Christ) to be born. Then away she goes back into the closets of scripture, she is more than a vessel, even mere vessels of God were treated better than that in the Old Testament, they were holy objects.

Please do look up the word. Hope this helps a bit. More later.

Da
aka
Fr. Shawn Rainey

Ken,

Thank you for your response. I don't mean to be tedioius, but while I see the catechism mentions Mary as Mediatrix, am I to understand this as meaning she is so of all graces? What I mean is that I have no problem with the general concept of Marian intercession, or that of the rest of the saints. But I had not understood this to mean that we do not go directly to our Lord in prayer, but must have all our prayers mediated through Mary.

It is not the teaching of the communion of the saints, nor of the unique position of our Blessed Mother within it that causes me a problem. It is just thinking that all graces only come through her mediatorial role. That is not something I had come across in my studies as yet.

However, it appears from your post that you are saying that this is exactly what is meant by the proper title, Mediatrix, and that, as all things the Church teaches about Mary, it is to be understood through the lens of her relationship with Christ. Am I getting this straight? Please feel free to further clarify and correct.

Thank you for your welcome home. It is very exciting to be finally coming home. Thanks be to God!!!

I must have missed it somewhere along here...

What is the definition of Mediatrix?