Since deaconesses seem to have been ordained in the ancient Church, as accepted now I believe by the Greek Orthodox, I don't think it is quite as problematic as you might suppose.

But the Order of Deacons does not include priestly authority to preside at Mass or to absolve of sin. It is a different kind of Order.

Ordaining to the presbyteral priesthood or the episcopate would indeed be a problem.

There were deaconesses in the Early Church -- but it is not at all clear if it was an ordained ministry. Their primary responsibility was to assist in the baptism of women, as the candidates were naked.

Follow this link to the Deaconness Thread

http://forum.ancient-future.net/index.php?showtopic=32

BTW there are two pages on the Catholic Questions thread. Please see page two.

How Rome can call Brazil "Schismatic' is beyond me to understand.

This is an area I have spent some time researching, and my conclusion so far is that Rome should be declaring Bp Costa a hero of the faith.

I would not think it would bode well with any of us if we saw the Roman Church shipping pedophiles to Brazil to escape prosecution due to there being no extradition laws there.

We would probably think very well of a Bishop there that stood up and said this was not proper and that he would not go along with it.

Hey guys, we are pretty good at asking for the truth about the C.E.C., lets be honest in all things.
Rome has never been perfect either; lets hold her accountable as well.

I do thank the posters here that have shown that most of these "aberrant" are not actually part of Brazil.

Just my thoughts,

in HIM,
Fr. Rusty

Fr. Rusty,

Trust me I believe in holding Rome to account. I believe in holding our local bishops as well. For me, it works both ways, for the CEC and for my own Church. I was very hot-under-the-collar about the cover-ups in my own church, and trust me, even as a conservative Catholic I am not going to give my leaders a "free pass." Good saints have always, in charity and with good reason, corrected their leaders. St. Catherine of Siena basically told the pope at the time of the Avignon Schism to get his a** back in Rome! She is remembered as a doctor of the Church for this and other reforms.

David

I would suggest that first we look at our own communion. We can't even hold our so called bishops accountable. How would you expect us to hold Rome accountable from the outside?

With all due respect, Fr. Rusty, your understanding of catholicity seems some what lacking to me.

I would suggest to you that while Rome isn't perfect, It has proven itself to be completely workable and functional for over 2000 years. The CEC can't even get to the point of workable over a period of 14 years.

The local Roman Priest in my area was a Canon Lawyer for 15 years and has a doctorate in Theology. In the CEC Canon Law is an Oxymoron.

I would also suggest that instead of survival on to the next thing (Brazil, Prelates etc.) you take a long hard introspection upon how all of those people who are the clergies responsibility can be prevented from ever having to go through this gut wrenching experience ever ever ever ever again. Anything less is pastoral irresponsibility. But then again, there doesn't seem to be many pastors among the ranks of our bishops.

Furthermore, Bishop Costa would be disgusted at the silence, inaction and general cowdarce of our own bishops during this crisis.

the dog

Ken,

Look closely at the website of the WWCCANC and see that the Atkinson-Wake connection is gone. Close tabs are kept on those who desire communion with the ICAB, and when anything unCatholic or questionable comes up, it is dealt with decisively and with Goldly authority. I think the CEC knows this.

Homeward

Fr. Rusty, et al...
If you have done any research on ICAB. CANC and Bishop Costa or Bishop Mendez would you please post it for our benefit? :)

Friends,

I can assure you that this man is not a part of the ICAB, nor is there and form of communion with the Patriarch; furthermore, he acted completely independantly.

Homeward

Ken,

I dare, once more, to issue the Johanine invitation; "come and see".

Homeward

Dear David: Thank you, good response.

I did not mean lets try to take Rome down or any thing like that, what i did , and do mean, is i do not see any reason or means for them to consider Brazil as they do.

It just seems so very wrong to me..
Again, for me, wrong is wrong, right is right, its just that simple.

Again thanks for your post.

oK, dOG.

Look, you do not know me, however, you just left discussion and just made this personal, not a good thing to do.

You want to speak of inaction, hiding, being cowards and all.

Well, partner my fight in this is well known, but I do not see yours.
I can see Bp Costas very well.
I know the problems of our Bishops, i have been in this for awhile, I bet the bank and have stood to try and make it better.

My intentions and actions are on file.

Other than that, man I have no comments for you.

Fr. Rusty

Dear Friends,

In response to the concerns raised in your e-mails, I must now assure all that ICAB believes:

"the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgement is to be definitely held by all the Church's faithful".

May we move on to more pressing matters?

Homeward

Beautiful response, Paxdeo!

Fr. Rusty,
I agree with your logic however there must be reasoning beyond what you mentioned because there has been a sixty year schism with ICAB. For example, SSPX has not been in schism as long as ICAB has, yet they are in the process of possible reunification with Rome. What were the reasons for the split?

There are several issues here.

1) The ICAB of Bishop Costa is not the ICAB of Bishop Mendez (although ICAB reveres Bishop Costa as a saint.) Yes, there certainly were issues regarding fascism in Brazil -- no question about it. Yet I'm not convinced that this was the reason for the split -- at least, not the main reason. From everything I've read, some of Bishop Costa's views were more consistent with the Liberation Theology movement of the 1960's and 1970's than were, perhaps, strictly orthodox. In other words, he went beyond the preferential option for the poor. He was ordered to tone down his rhetoric -- and did not do so, which caused his excommunication.

Bishop Mendez, on the other hand, is theologically far more conservative than Bishop Costa was, and that has been reflected in church practice and discipline. From time to time, there have been revolts among some of the more "progressive" ICAB bishops, which, to this point, Bishop Mendez has been able to weather. What will happen when Bishop Mendez dies? That (for me) is the $64,000.00 question.

2) There are areas of "discipline" which still seperate Rome and ICAB. The married clergy is one thing -- but ICAB and the Vatican also differ on matters of contraception and divorce. These would need to be worked through.

Personally, I believe that ICAB and Rome will eventually reconcile. The original reasons for the schism are no longer issues. As I understand things, Pope John Paul II did meet with Bishop Mendez. However, I think that the healing will come when the older generation of ICAB (who still have memories of the friction between the two churches) have passed on -- much like what is currently happening with the Polish National Catholic Church.

While, of course, I would wish that everyone would come "home to Rome", the Brazilian choice seems to me to be a valid option for many in the CEC. My greatest concern lies in the fact that over a several decade period, ICAB has made numerous attempts in the United States, and all of them, up until now, have been unsuccessful -- some, wildly so.

Many blessings,

Thank you David Z: As usuall you post well and that should open up more discussion.
Rusty+

Is it worth the risk? That is the question? Do you want to go through a situation like this again?

I'm beginning to see the beauty of Tony the bolony man's decision to go to ......................hmmmm I can't remember where?

the dog

Now here are the tough questions:

Is it a valid option because they have congregations who need a shepherd and, at the present, their congregation's level of faith isn't where the Catholic Church is or is it valid because one might say, "Doggone, I don't accept the discipline and authority of the Church"? I cannot see both as being valid, viable reasons.

My concern, as well, is that the ICAB without the Magisterium may become what the CEC and 731 other groups have become. Already, look at the CEC and Barker's Free Catholic Communion-both claim succession from ICAB. They could be like the PNC and ACOE. However if they do start breaking away from tradition as they already have on contraception and divorce, will they not be more like the Old Catholics who have splintered into many autocephalous groups where valid succession is unprovable?

Would we not be wiser and more loving toward those whom we have oversight to bring them into something that will be here for them and their posterity long after we have entered Glory?

Well Said! Well Said!

ruff ruff

Women were not ordained to the SAME order of deacons as men in the ancient church.

If you read the Father's, you will get a glimpse concerning women's ministry as deaconesses and it was shortlived primarily because originally baptisms were done naked. Since that is no longer the case (and since the fathers abandoned it early as well) it is no longer acceptable in the Catholic faith.

So in reality there is no precedent for women's ordination to the sacred order of deacons.
( I will look for some writings for you.)

This presumes that "Deaconess" means female deacon.

In modern greek usage, presbytera means the wife of a priest. Not a priestess.

I am inclined to agree that the deaconess of ancient times held an office and practiced a ministry comparable to today's Catholic nuns & sisters. While not generally percived to be "laity" these consecrated women are not part of Holy Orders either.

Some liberal (social liberals) Catholics, have called for women to take part in the conclaves and be named cardinals, siting the "mitred abbesses" of midieveal times. I suspect most all making this claim would shudder at the prospect of a "Mother Angelica Cardinal Rizzo, Mitred Archabbess of Irondale."

Really, this is not beyond you to comprehend. Beyond your ability to agree with? certainly possible. Rather simple, in fact.

It is schismatic because it broke ranks with a communion. It said to an authority "here I stand, I am going my own way."

You may retort it did so for what may be percieved as a good reason. But we do not measure each schism from the Catholic church as being "For a good resaon" or "justifiable."

There are ways and means to address am issue or lodge a complaint. But if we - even when we think or in fact we are justifited - break communion, where would that leave us? Authority we only submit to when we like and agree is no authority at all. "He is my bishop and holds authority in these matters so long as I agree with him."

When we stop agreeing, it is time to start our own church? No.

Friends,

This should read definitavely, not definately. Mea culpa.

Homeward

Friends,

I just heard seven confessions and I can't spell!! "Definitively" :blink:

With all due respect, WHY oh WHY would you go this route?

1. No guarantee you can pass it to your children.

2. The orders that they hold come from THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH, so she is, by default, your authority.

Does everyone hate Rome that much? This is very disappointing.

I tend to feel the same howbeit no surprise to the choir here who have heard my preaching for some time now.

David,

Good points as usual. I agree that ICAB is a good choice barring submission to the Orthodox or the Catholic Church.

What attempts have ICAB made and what was wild? This made me curious. I am very interested in the history of ICAB. I will be visiting the local parish here in SATX to investigate. They appear very Catholic and they dedicated their building to JPII.

THIS IS THE MAIN CONSIDERATION AND REASON NOT TO GO ANY WAY BUT EAST OR WEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ken,

When will you be coming? I'll bake a cake, put a votive in the window, etc.!!! :D


Homeward

You are tooooooooooo fffffffffuuuuuuuuuuunnnnnnnnnnyyyyyyyyyyyyy


Thanks Rome Sweet Home or is it Home Sweet Rome. .......

On a more serious note you all are a blessing here on the Forum. God is just soooo
Good..... :P :D


Tony Baloney who ain't phony

Post deleted.

Friends,

Shall we return to the topic for which this thread is named? :)

My Dear David,

I was, at first, happy to let this thread develop and contribute to its honest intellectual trajectory. As it seems, it has begun to veer slightly.

In the hope that we can revive what I believe to be a discussion of paramount importance, I shall point out that the connection between Duarte Costa and the liberation theologians is, at best, anachronistic.

Homeward

Paxdeo,

How are ICAB and the Church at Rome different besides the dogmas of Papal supremacy and infallibility?

Ken

I agree.

Friends, our brother Paxdeo has worked hard giving valuable information on the ICAB/CANC option. Let's keep the thread on track.

Blessings,

Greetings, my friend,

To a certain extent, perhaps so -- but it is incontrovertible that the ICAB of Dom Mendez is a far more conservative body than was the ICAB of Dom Duarte Costa. One wonders if he had been active 30 years later (say, during Vatican II) if he would have remained in communion with Rome.

Also, the issue with the Vatican passports has interested me for a long time. I wonder if the positions of Pope Pius XII and Dom Duarte Costa had been reversed what would have happened. Those dozen or so passports supposedly bought the freedom of thousands of priests and lay Catholics at the end of World War II. War causes horrific necessities -- and, frankly, the Allies were not going out of their way to aid or assist the Vatican at the time. Quite to the contrary.

Just chewing on some thoughts . . .

Blessings,

OK Ken, I'll bite. Besides the Eastern view of divorce or annulment, the recognition celibacy as a gift, not a prerequisite for Holy Orders, and the open-ended questioning of the dogma of infallibility (which more people reject per capita within the Roman Church than within ICAB, and which is not a canon or mandatory confessional position in ICAB), there are far more similarities than differnces.

My hope is that God uses this moment in history to show the beauty of this communion and its corrective/prophetic witness to so many who have been searching for "love in all the wrong places" as it were.

One cannot go anywhere in South America and not know of the impact this communion has had on those who live on the ecclesiastical and institutional margins simply because the don't fit the "bill".

The CEC was full of precious people in love with Jesus and desiring to make Him known to all. They worshiped in charismatic and third wave and pentecostal expressions which the Episcopalians and Romans frowned upon or rejected outright. ICAB knows what this feels like, and knows that God still moves and restores and heals and deposits the riches of the Catholic Faith even on those who don't fit the proverbial bill.

Forgive the pedantic plowing; it must be close to dinner time. :o

Thanks, Paxdeo. I am very pleased at the level of orthodoxy and stabilty your church has had in 60 years.

My Dear David,

These must be seen as two different issues, the nuances of which Duarte Costa fully understood. His fear was that these people would change the course of history and politics in South America with their money and power. A history which was just entering a promising age of commerce and trade in natural resouces. David, this actually happened, and we live with the effects of it today!

Can you imagine Chile rivaling France for the world's wine market, Bolivia and Venezuela leading the nations of oil and LNG producers, and Colombia exporting precious gems that rival South African output? But all in the 1950's!!!! Had the fascists and nazis not infiltrated the vulnerable economies and infrastructures when they did, things would be different.

Again, the viability of the ICAB option for CECers is what I would like to focus on, because of valid, faithful succession, Catholic spirituality, and orthodox praxis.


Man I'm hungry!!!! :blink:

Homeward