Hello from an average lay person in the former SC diocese who has been following this forum off and on from the very beginning. My husband and I have been trying to follow all this, but honestly, we both work, have kids, and an active life. So, realistically, it has not been possible to get through all this discussion.
I usually am looking on this board to see the latest developments in the CEC/ former CEC groups because I have felt that is the onlt way I would know things at times. The leadership overall has been slow in communicating to us in the SC province, and I have been able to find things here that I was never told otherwise.

To the point, I find that it will take much more time than I have to read the hundreds of posts that would give me the info I am looking for. Is anyone able or interested in posting a general summary of the activity in the CEC over the last few months? When the average lay person like me logs on, there is great discussion, but some of us are looking to see if there are any new developments and it can take a long time to find this on the board. No offense to those who offer us great food for thought. We just don't always have time to fully engage in the board. And this board has been a place I feel like I can look to see what's going on in the CEC in more "real" time than what I get from leadership communication.

I have enjoyed reading the many posts, and it has sparked some great conversation between me and my priest, among generating some questions that when asked gave me information from my priest that I don't think I woudl ahve ever gotten otherwise. Might I add that I feel my priest has answered my questions honestly and forthright, just not offered a lot of info unless I am asking.

So, THANK YOU TO EVERYONE ON THIS FORUM WHO HAVE SPENT COUNTLESS HOURS TRYING TO KEEP US INFORMED OF WHAT'S GOING ON. I APPRECIATE ALL THE WORK IT TAKES TO KEEP UP WITH THE HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF POSTS OVER TIME.

OK-
I just found another thread related to the charges against the CEC, which I think will possibly give me this summary. So, before anyone goes to any great lengths, I will just head over there and begin reading.
I am technically challenged at times, so please be patient with me. I am trying to figure out how these forums work...

Thanks

Actually SC member, that's a good idea and a challenge. I think some of our summaries could be short and might vary greatly, depending on what's important to them. I say this, because some are going to have a lot bigger problem with lack of unity in liturgical practices, theology, apostolic succession, than I would.

Here goes MY summary:

1. The initial consecretion of +Adler was not investigated very well, because Timothy Barker was a heretic and he was consecreted by a a married couple (note--woman consecrator) named Spruitt. This problem was corrected, as least as fleeing ECUSANS were concerned, by the consecration of +Howard and +Adler by Bp Milsaps, but those who are really picky about Apostolic Succession claim it wasn't really valid until the Brazilian Consecrations 5 years or so later. In any event this problem--occult CEC roots-- was a hush hush secret and never revealed to most clergy until recently.

2. In 14 years the CEC has not yet developed a common liturgy, or even doctrine, as to Eucharist and many theological subjects. In September 2006 the Patriarch's Council weakly reaffirmed the Episcopal Church's Catechism from the 1979 BCP.

3. Many are upset with the shift in recent years from a balance in the three streams worship to an unbalance toward the charismatic stream and a greatly weakened evangel and sacramental stream.

4. Sometime in the last ten years the Primate became a Patriarch which has now been discovered means absolute authority and the HOB merely an affirming body of prayer.

5. +Howard was deposed in fall of 2005 due to failure to submit to spiritual discipline. He took several families from Church of the Messiah in Jacksonville and started The Chapel. In the meantime the IDA and SE Province funds were left in a disaster with many hundreds of thousands of misspent money. Part of the mess is attributable to the failed purchase of an entire shopping center next to Church of the Messiah. Others are missing due to use by Howard for personal trips, money stolen by a prostitute in Italy.

6. The Patriarch's Council failed to insist on financial accountability of Adler, Howard and the IDA for many years, even though questions and concerns had been raised by other bishops.

7. There have been charges against the Patriarch almost too numerous to list: carrying around pictures of another married woman that he believes he'll marry after Betty dies; felonious use and obtaining of controlled substance Ambien obtained through sources in the Phillipines, addiction to this narcotic and alcohol, drunkeness, making a sexual pass at a bishop's wife, failure to take a sabbatical and submit to discipline requested by numerous bishops, failure to account for monies received, failure to lead, failure to communicate, simply regurgitating +Abp Jones's sermons, failure to follow the lectionary and liturgy, having a mid life crisis accounting for long hair and blue shades, using tithes received for sumptious living quarters.

8. As a result of many of these issues and more, +Zampino and the Life of Jesus community and two parishes left; at least 2 clergy in Maine have resigned; the CEC church in Chattanooga has resigned; +Bp Sly resigned and numerous clergy under him; +Painter resigned and two churches there left; +Fick and +Miles and all churches in the Great Lakes province have left but Fr. Ken Tanner's church (stepson of +Adler), Bp Myers and all of the SC Diocese have left, which includes churches in Mexico and Puerto Rico. Numerous other clergy have left in other dioceses. The first CEC bishop of Uganda, Obokech, has been recently deposed for failure to title his cathedral built with CEC funds in the name of the CEC. +Apb Hines has forbidden +Adler to set foot in the cathedral in Manila. Paulo Garcia was just named Archbishop and made part of the PC. Fr. David Simpson reportedly will be elected bishop of Florida next week. Church of the Messiah is looking to sell their building to get out of massive debt. Laudate, the youth movement has folded based upon most of the leaders--lay and clergy--leaving.

9. The CEC has never followed its own canons and has wrongfully deposed or disciplined many clergy without reasons, hearing, chance of appeal. Some CEC churches insist on a type of group confession requiring confessions in front of the rector instead of one picked by the confessor, and management of people's lives. Most importantly the promised consensus government has not been followed at all by many bishops and +Woodall's resignation letter to then bishop Howard states that. Many bishops basically have run their own fiefdoms in the CEC.

10. The CEC leadership broke a promise to the Brazilian Consecrators when a 5000 member church in Recife Brazil wanted to join. Rumors are that Garcia was promised consecration as bishop which he had been repeatedly denied by the Anglican church if he came into the CEC, smacking of simony.

11. +Painter in his resignation letter accused the CEC of becoming a "cult of personality" and in danger of becoming a full blown cult. He writes, "From my years of experience I am convinced that we are dealing with a "cultic" spirit."

12. Too many ordinations in comparison to no growth so that in some churches a huge percentage of the adult male population is ordained, some without proper training: issues abound over nepotism in ordinations, over extremely diverse practices of training (St. Michael's seminary) throughout the country. Some people have fast track ordinations under some bishops some have slow track ordinations if in another province.

I'm impressed, Samwise. You did that well. A lot to deal with, but you posted it all quite concisely. I could have saved myself hours and hours of trying to weed through the forum!!! :D

Samwise you have summoned up over 5437 posts into a 5 minute read. You go Samwise!!!!!! You're the hobbit extraordinaire!

Welcome SC Member.

Frankly I'm not surprised at the silence you are getting from the Former SC Province (I like to call it The Fellowship of the Republic of Texas.) The information that I have received from various sources is that the Archdeacon of the Cathedral is a large part of the problem. He is, according to what I hear, a believer that "they only need to know what we tell them." This is a sad state of affairs but I think it reflects the genuine, real, deep down, trouble in the CEC.

I would suggest to you that when an organisation is in trouble that it should open up everything to the inspection of all. That way the folks see the struggles and the "warts and all." Folks can understand this but they can't understand the silence and almost conspiracy to keep people in the dark.

Rochus

Thanks Samwise- what a great summary of more posts than I could ever read. I can see that you have been very involved with the forum over the last few months.

I think what I am wondering is this: If this has been going on for several years, why wasn't anything done about it before recently? I know there are probably numerous and varied answers on this, but it is disturbing to me. I don't think I would have joined the CEC if I had know of these problems. We have been going to a CEC church for almost 3 years now.

So, what do you think will happen to the CEC in the US? Do you think it will crumble and fall apart? Do you think all the resigned churches and Bishops will form the "reformed CEC" or something similiar? I don't know how much more of it I can take personally.

It seems like we keep hearing a lot of talk and have not seen much action around here. And I am not sure at this point that there is anything the leadership in the CEC could do to restore my trust. I am prayerfully considering what to do now.

One major factor in all this is our kids. Our older kids are starting to ask questions as they hear things from church sometimes. This has led to some discussions with them that are very disappointing to me. To tell your kids what's going on in the CEC leadership without shaking them up a bit is something I don't know if we can do. They don't have a frame of reference for all this, and I don't want them to consider these problems as a normal part of what happens in the church. But I could digress here, so will wrap it up.

Thanks to those who responded to my original post. I VERY much appreciate the effort of your summary. And I will continue to read the discussions here, hoping to glean more understanding of what has really gone on in the CEC.

All I can say now is, my head is still spinning from all this. It's confusing to the average lay person to sort it all out, not knowing who all these people all over the US are, and the history of these relationships, etc.

I have been and continue to pray for the CEC and all it's members and clergy. I think there are a lot of people like me who are just confused and trying to figure out what to do now.

SCmember,

While perusing the forums, I would strongly suggest that you take everything with a grain of salt (probably more like a pound...). There is alot of information here. Much of it is unsubstantiated due to lack of evidence beyond the personal experience and interpretation of each poster. In an academic sense, we would have gotten a big, bold, "F" a long time ago, for not providing sufficient proof. Emotion has overtaken rationality on numerous occasions. Unfortunatly, in many cases this is the nature of such a crisis, as there is relatively little to go on. However, there are also many factual nuggets to be obtained in these threads... Tread lightly, think critically, speak only after parsing your words. This is my admonishment to all participants. Welcome to the discussion.

-RO

Roaring Oasis, and others:

As to lack of evidence. Scriptures say "let everything be proven on the mouths of two or three witnesses..." (2 Cor).

Everything on my list comes from MULTIPLE sources, mostly from CLERGY who heard these matters from their own Bishops or OTHER bishops. Much of this stuff is now in WRITING--Painter's Letter, the GLF letter, Myers letter, the SC Diocese forum postings and their earlier letter; Woodall's letter....the list of proof goes on and on...and besides, a LOT of us now know who we are due to off line conversations. I've personally spoken off line with David Zampino, and several other regular participants to this forum.

and secondly:

These allegations have been discussed since the fourth of July and NOT ONE DENIAL from an official source. Oh yeah, criticism that the forums aren't accurate. Well, there's a lot that probably isn't. But as to SPECIFICS cited above there has been NO DENIAL from any official CEC source.

Sorry, RO, I have to agree with Samwise on this one. The signed letters from various bishops and other clergy are common knowledge and readily available. The more responsible posters have either 1) stuck to their own personal stories, or 2) spoken of what they know first-hand.

I have more sources than I can name (or WILL name) from literally all over the world on all levels of clerical hierarchy and from numerous laymen and women. If I post a factoid, it has been checked against multiple sources. If I'm proven to be mistaken, I will apologize and retract.

David B. and I have also done our best to try to remove, or at least to rein in and mitigate some of the more outrageous things which have been posted.

Frankly, I have no problem whatsoever with Samwise's list; to me, it is an outstanding summary.

Blessings,

I think to a great extent the damage to the CEC in the US has been done. There's an issue about whether +Lipka and Delmarva will stay in the CEC, and I predict they won't. I don't see +Davidson, +Bates, +Woodall, +Jones, +Holloway, leaving anytime soon. Simpson won't be consecrated until January but he won't be leaving the day after consecation is a safe wager. <G>

As to what +Hines will do, I don't know. I think +Garcia will stay, as he's just been made Abp and part of the PC.

The churches that left probably won't realign together for a while, if at all. Many are far apart, some have widely different theological views on sacraments, the prophetic, apostolic sucession that has never been unified in 14 years in the CEC (which has yet to establish doctrine on these issues).

You will see individual clergy and a few churches leave over the next few months. Several are talking with other denominations about new alignments.

What remains of the CEC will be smaller, and not necessarily wiser. I know a small church with a huge mortgage that will likely fold in 18 months or less. Church of the Messiah will lose their old huge facility that served as the cathedral and move to smaller, cheaper quarters. The CEC leadership will think they have weathered and survived the crisis, and of course all who left "weren't really with us", "were too RC", or "not Charismatic", or "didn't understand how authority really works." In other words, their leaving justified and labeled.

There will be no release of the amounts embezzled or mishandled in the IDA, because that might force action. The investigation will just "officially continue" will be the "official stance".

From now on however, the CEC will be understood, via Internet forums, and Wikipedia listings, in a whole new light as a "San Clemente run charismatic church". Before one joins up in the future, one has the ability now to be informed. This in my opinion, will most immediately and particularly hurt +Woodall's military chaplain recruitment in the year or so to come. (Military guys aren't dumb and they don't want to be listed with an organization their comrades could so easily find criticism about via Internet.)

In ten years, the CEC may recover in the US and grow again. Or not. God will decide.

David & Samwise, I agree... There is alot of solid information that has come to light over the past month especially... and the letters, leaked or not, have verified alot of things directly... much of this has come to light over the past month and a half. I've not completely analyzed Samwise's posts, but at this point I have no issues with it, and that was not what I was commenting on. I guess I was generalizing too much (using much rather than most was still too broad), and too far back down the timeline... but "Tread lightly, think critically, speak only after parsing your words. This is my admonishment to all participants." still stands. Its too easy to take sides on this issue without critically analyzing the posts. And until rather recently, critical thinking was not being employed by many around here. Things have begun to cool off, though... and I would certainly not deny that things are getting much better, relative to the state we were in a couple months ago. And yes, David... You and David B have done a great job... I dont know if you've done any retroactive cleanup, as I've not had time to go back and review, but you guys have done a wonderful job. I meant no criticism to either of you.

Samwise's summary was well condensed... my response was merely in regards to the fact that its likely that SCmember will also be catching up and monitoring the continuing discussion in its raw state.

In regards to Samwise's repsonce to my post: Refrence to 2 Cor 13:1, I believe? I would contend that it only applies when those two or three have established identities... In a very technical sense, I can't consider anything you've posted as fact because I dont know your identity, or that of your multiple sources. Thats not to say I dont agree with or believe you, or that I couldn't attempt to contact you to find out your true identity... But in proving a point to someone who asks me where I got my information, I cant tell them "some dude nicknamed Samwise who has confirmed this from multiple sources" and expect them to believe me... Which is why I desire to establish or dispel the information found on this forum by undeniable/empirical means. Not that this feat is entirely possible... but it is a neccesary undertakeing. We need to establish a baseline of empirically supported facts, so that people dont have to wade thru the 6k posts, and do the detective work all over again. This is a major part of the reason for my attempt to establish the CECcrisis Wiki, and revise the LoA.

My apologies for selecting a broader than reasonable brush.

RO,

Actually I agree. But see, I know who you are and where you live and what you did in the CEC. I congratulate you on your zeal for the Lord. And I also know who some of the other regulars are in this forum. That's because we've communicated off line and shared stories. That's how I learned who you were. <G>

So to me it's a truth, but your point is, to someone who doesn't know the real person behind the pseudonym, the Corinthians reference shouldn't apply. Valid point. But it's also a valid point that there's something wrong with a CHURCH that members and clergy have to be overtly careful on speaking out for fear of reprisals.

Samwise,

I don't remember a letter from Woodall..... All the other letters you have mentioned I have found. Can you point to this letter you have mentioned. Using the search tool it came up empty. Thanks

A.

Quite true... I guess I'm just tired of the arguments that spring up solely because what you or I know to be true can not be substantiated properly for distrobution to others. It becomes a my truth / your truth battle for the mere fact that each side "knows" they are right but can't or won't provide any better an explanation than they've got multiple or reliable sources... And those who do publically come out and state what they know to be fact, like David Z. and Fr. Vern are ridiculed by the opposing sides merely because of their affiliations. Not that they've been entirely right 100% of the time... but nonetheless... eh. I've gotta go to bed before my head explodes. Math test tomorrow, and a busy weekend ahead of me.

-RO

You know, it is funny but this reminded me of a point made my the Catholic Convert-Apologist Jimmy Akin in an article he wrote called The Practical Problems of Sola Scriptura.

In the article, Jimmy points out one difficulty (of many) with using Sola Scriptura as a method of creating a church, discearning the will of God, creating a personal theology, and having a right understanding of God. The difficulty? It presumes that we all have the time, energy, education, resources and lack of family obligations to really sit down, study and be thorough.

How is this related? Well, do you think God wants us to be confident in the authority and teachings of our church, even when we are not always confident in her leaders? Doesn't it seem right and appropriate that the truth and faith we recieve should be so very whole and complete that we don't need to be concearned about our time, ability, capacity and resources to find out the truth about those have trusted?

In the Catholic Church our world has been rocked by a myriad of scandals. a very FEW priests have done some VERY awful things, and more than a few bishops have covered it up and hidden it. Does this mean that I turn a blind eye to it all? NO! But while I do hold my bishops accountable, even if I come to find out the local priest is a real "son-of-a-pup" and the local bishop has covered for him, I know they as people are wrong, but the faith is still right. The teaching the Church entrusts sinners (of which I am the first!) to learn, protect, espuose & defend is still right.

I am sorry, I don't mean to be preachy or get off-topic. I just read your post and my heart breaks a little. A working family woman with your responsibilities should not have to be bothered by keeping track of the details of a crisis. You should be free and confident in your ability to move forward in growth in your own faith and the faith you are dutifully passing along to your children as a Christian mother.

This was posted by SC Friend at:
http://forum.ancient-future.net/index.php?...topic=18&st=783



And this is a huge problem for most of us. Many, including myself, joined the CEC years ago with the understanding that these Bishops not only heard from God, but worked in consensus. Then we found out over the years that some of the bishops ran their own fiefdoms and ruled tyrannically or out of desparation for money (balancing their gluttonous budgets and overdrafts and bounced checks) and could care LESS about consensus government.

You think I exaggerate? Here's an excerpt from +Woodall's letter of resignation in the summer of 2005 as Aux Bp of NC (he was subsequently put back in place after +Howard's deposition but resigned as Aux Bp of NC and Missionary Bp of SC earlier this spring.) Only excerpts are printed to protect innocent clergy:


Subject: Announcement
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 09:34:55 -0400

To the clergy of NC and SC

On June 9 I sent Abp. Dale Howard my letter of resignation as his Auxiliary for the Mission Districts of NC. In a letter dated June 20,Abp. Howard accepted my resignation.

The reasons I resigned are as follows:

(omissions)

6. Consensus government is supposed to be one of the foundations of the CEC. In the entire time I have worked with Abp. Howard, I have rarely seen consensus government exercised. Even when consensus is reached, the outcome is not what the consensus was due to Abp. Howard's not agreeing with it.

There are many other reasons that I resigned, but the above reasons are the most recent grievances that caused me to make the decision to resign.

The Primates Council of the CEC is aware of this entire situation and it will be discussed in an upcoming meeting.

(omissions)

Sincerely yours,
+DSW


___________________________________________________________
The Most Rev. Douglas S. Woodall
Archdiocese of the Armed Forces; Diocese of SC and Mission Districts
of NC; St. George's Cathedral Parish
99 Sydnor Road, Spartanburg, SC 29307

NOTE Woodall says "for the entire time" he has worked in the SE Province with Howard, Howard simply did what he wanted. NOW THAT explains a LOT of the mess over the years.

Thanks Samwise!

A.

Dear SC Member,

I would suggest you deal with these issues with your priest whom I think is most likely............me.

To A Simple Sinner-

Thanks for the story. I have been having a hard time following all this for months, but feel I have a responsibility to my children to know what is going on so we can continue to make INFORMED decisions.

One thing about all this that has bothered me at the gut level is that I have this sense that we are being given the information that others want us to have in order to make a decision. Well that has not been good enough for me. I think that transparency, as SamWise spoke of, is crucial during a time of crisis. When the question was asked in our church "Why are we asking Archbishop Adler to step down?" I was told that it couldn't be disclosed for personal reasons.

Well if we as lay people are supposed to support such an enormous thing such as asking the head of our church to step down, I feel it is essential to know why I should support it. "For personal reasons" is not good enough for me.

An example-

If I wanted to divorce my husband and wanted the support of my priest and the church, telling them only that it was private, personal matters that I couldn't share, should I really expect to have their support in such an important decision.

My point is that people need to provide all the information so that each man can judge what he/she thinks is right in their own heart after prayer and discussion. How can anyone expect that grown adults who are acustomed to thinking critically and making independent decisions would be satisfied with this approach.

However, I have been patient in making a final decision, hoping that things would become clear over time. And to a great degree, they have. All the info that was supposed to be "private" eventually came out on this forum. Trying to figure out who these people are and whether I can trust what they say is extremely difficult and sad as well. Because I would like to feel that my local priest/ bishop is making every effort to keep the members well informed with all the information about what is happening, at the time it is happening, not weeks or months later.

So now deciding what to do is my dilemma. The decison for the SC province to leave the CEC has been made. Where they are headed now I am unsure. My priest says we will retain the original vision of the CEC, but mostly I am concerned about my children and what will happen with their spiritual upbringing in the church. To not know what my children will be taught in the future because we don't even know what church we are is a disconcerting feeling as a parent. So why am I still there? I really don't know. I haven't felt God telling me loudly to go I guess. And I consider how much it will hurt all the members of our church if we leave. A hard place to be in all the way around.

Many of us have been or are now where you are. I am a mother of children. My husband has a difficult, time-consuming job, and he could not take the time to read all the forum postings. If it weren't for the forum, I don't know that we would have ever had enough information to attempt to make an informed decision. I spent many hours reading the forum and praying, reading the forum and praying. My husband would come home and I would give him a summary of what had been discussed that day. I did neglect many of my duties, but somehow I felt that this was so important, and it was not a matter of listening to gossip or rumors or having an "exciting" crisis to occupy my time. It was just very important, and I knew it was. There were some people in my parish who did not want to get involved or hear about the problems. They felt in the beginning that the forum was probably "bad", and they trusted the CEC and were happy and did not want to be worried about it.....I will have to say it eventually caught up with them and caused them much upset. Each of us is approaching the matter in our own way and our own time, and maybe some are not approaching it at all. We went through a sort of grieving process...hurt, anger, etc. Many already have or are in this type process now.

It is difficult, but it is our spiritual welfare we are talking about here. What is more important? I firmly believe that God will show each of us our way, as long as we are asking Him to. My prayers are with you and your family.
Believer

Had I known about these problems, hey, I wouldn't have joined either!

Honestly, I think the problems have been there all along, but it's taken time for all of its impurities to surface. Now that they are being brought to light, this is precisely why you see the exodus from the CEC taking place right now all over the U.S. and potentially the world.

Yet, for the vast majority of those clergy and laity who have left the CEC, they have NOT abandoned the vision of the CEC.

The private (not secret) thoughts of the SC clergy is public domain now. Hey, you don't have to ask Rochus and the Dog for a copy of that thread....just ask me, and I'll send you the complete unedited version (which continues several days after Rochus' version).

To answer others' questions about where we stand theologically and how the clergy in our diocese have been wrestling earlier this year with stuff...all you have to do is go over to South Central Clergy Forum and read our "Doing Theology" section. I think you'll find it enlightening and also showing you some of Bp. Myers' theology that is not what others have contended it to be.

I say to EVERY member of the former South Central Province of the CEC, that if you want to know what has happened and what is happening among our leadership, all you need to do is (1) dialogue with your priest/deacon who attended last Friday night's meeting in Sherman, TX or (2) call/email Bishop Myers and do the same. I painted a pretty accurate picture to my parish in my sermon last Sunday as to what is going on. It's even on tape.

Here's my put to members of the South Central Province who are questioning whether they should leave their current parish/mission. Do not make a decision based soley on what has happened in the past. Discover what the current leadership has learned from its participation in past failure and discover the heart and vision that remains. I'm sure you'll find that what you thought you were joining in the CEC, has not been abandoned.

A pastoral letter from Bishop Myers, to all the congregations of the South-Central, has gone out to its clergy. That letter will be distributed to our congregations this coming Sunday. It is a very honest, forthright and revealing statement. I pray the moderators of this forum - please do not publish it beforehand, should it - like everything else has - leak out before its time. Please respect the process of change.

We didn't get into this mess overnight. Neither will it be an overnight "resurrection." We all need to take some time and heal. May everyone just be able to back away from their computers - go outside - and take a deep breath of fresh air, behold the wonders of nature in the fall colors of trees and praise God for His goodness and lovingkindness. Because we are all.....

Under The Mercy,
Father Mark+

For one, your children, if they would be involved in our current Christian Education program, would be taught the Creeds and the Sacraments.

And one thing I wish they would be taught, by example preferably...is HOW to be a Disciple of Christ in the midst of wrongs, hurt and dysfunction by others.

I see a LOT of Christians, but what gets MY attention and respect is when one is honest and forthright at all times, even AGAINST their personal and monetary interests. Also one who when things go bad and they're beaten down, they perservere, still serve the Lord, and rise again as faithful witnesses. One who admits their faults, repents and amends their ways.

God, we need more of these. What many of us have witnessed in some CEC dioceses is a LOT of pious words, but too much vicious attacks, failure to submit to third party resolutions, fear of outside influences being critical or second guessing our actions. The CEC has had its share of priests, canons and bishops who can't stand the light and scrutiny of any outside the CEC criticism and mediation involvement.

Well said, Samwise! I thoroughly and wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments.

I would like to respond to you below in Blue.

In the "Leadership Crisis" thread of our SC Clergy Forum that got published on this forum, my identity was not very successfully hidden. One has only to go to our forum to discover that "Fr*********" Site Admin" [in Rochus' version] and the "Texan, living in exile north of the Red River" [aka Oklahoma] is none other than me.

In my post in that thread, I asked for an apologetic from +Myers for signing a document that said the reverse of what we had signed earlier in June. I said, "I will be teachable but not gullible."

That continues to be my posture as I am shaped by the Church through its liturgy, sacraments and Holy Scriptures.

What's that great quote from Presiden "W"....
"Fool me once, shame on me.
Fool me twice..........................well, don't let that happen again."

St. Paul told us (paraphrasing) "Follow me as I follow Christ."

I will follow my bishop as he follows Christ. I expect my parishioners to follow me, as I follow Christ.

But as I told my congregation last Sunday, "If I haven't disappointed you yet, some day, I will. And if you haven't disappointed me, someday you will. So, rather than split up, let's first agree to submit ourselves one to another and covenant to build one another up in Christ. "....provoking one another to love and to good works." I continued telling them, "If I EVER screw up morally, am unrepentant or begin to teach things that even HINT at heresy.....PLEASE DON'T DRINK MY KOOL-AID!"

Having been through what we all have been through, I have no other choice as one of Christ's undershepherds of His sheep, than to continue to lead the people into greener pastures. It would be foolish and reprehensible as a pastor to tell his questioning sheep that because of all that has happened, you just go on your own way. As we begin to embark to find that place of "greener pastures" for our congregations, we should all realize that it will take time. Our direction will be made clearer with each step that we take together.

May God bring to unity His Church.

I am just is shock how a decision to leave a denomination can be made by clergy on behalf of the laity without open information and consent.

Not even when ECUSA parishes joined CEC have I heard of such a thing occurring. When the former St. David's Episcopal Church came into the CEC +Howard's old parish that became Messiah there was open dialogue, questions asked, the Episcopal Bishop himself sent a representative to talk to the laity. No such thing seems to have been the case here....! For laity it can be disconcerting and should be....you were not taken into acount, you did not get the benefit of full information, you did not get the benefit of hearing the other side...how horrible.

Of all the problems in the CEC perhaps this is to me the most awful...yet it seems to be entrenched in those bishops who have recently separated from the CEC....and notably the case of the SC province. It was them after all who helped concoct a system of government that excludes all but the select few, separates the clergy from the laity and enshrines secrecy. For those who leave and those who stay that culture has to change or it all will repeat itself again whereever we go and those who stay.

My parish is so far somewhat stable...looking forward to the election and consecration of our new Bishop...but ther is also great pain and dissapointment.

Lord have mercy

seraph

My dear Rochus.....

You said, "According to what I hear the SC province even discussed not allowing deacons to attend the conclave on Friday. Absolutely no laity would have been welcomed at that meeting."

Let me assure you that what you "HEARD" was bogus. EVERY deacon was encouraged to attend AND there was laity there as well.

You should check your sources more carefully.

One thing certainly is for sure in the outcome of this crisis....CEC definitely is made up of protestants in vestments.....not even rising to the level of Anglicans.

As I see it in less than 2 decades the bishops have un-amicably separated from each other and spilt the communion for reasons which they feel are very valid...! From the perpective of scisms we have seen in RC and ECUSA...for real theological disputes or heresy...our family feud ending in divorce sems kind of petty. We were just dressed up Baptists and Charismatics after all.....oh well!

Maybe there is more than we know but in our culture of secrecy there are always those that are going to wonder why the boys in purple just could not get it together and marvel at how protestat it all is after so much catholic talk.

blessings

seraph

Dear Fr. Wallace

I asked this same question to Fr. Rusty. Perhaps you could also help me understand?

Respectfully asking... can you help me understand how Bp. Myers could sign the document at PC and now pull-out of CEC ?

I am not underestimating the pressure he must (have been) be under. I am wondering if this was due to an "all or nothing dicoese" decision that was made and effected by his return from PC without Adler's resignation in-hand? Did he flip-flop on his decision again once he returned home because of the response to signing the PC document?

Please help me understand this one? How was this decision made?

Seraph,
Two items:
1. Welcome back to the forum!
2. Isn't this what I have been saying all along? When are you going to come back to the Catholic Church?
Ken

Father Wallace....

How much time do you think you have in finding the greener pastures of which you speak? Surely, you and the clergy of the former SC Province of the CEC have a direction or leading of some kind by now as to where those pastures lie? You men have been in discussion for some time, prior to, during, and now a few weeks after the fiasco at the PC meeting. You guys thoughts, by your own admission now have been made public. You all were in denial, and not being totally forthright with your sheep during that time.

I understand the desire to "feel you do not have to move too fast", I honestly do, but this situation has been going on for some time now and as evidenced by your response earlier to a forum member "that they should be talking to you about this as their Priest" indicates the sheep are hungry and wondering, aloud and in print, as to just where you guys intend to take them and why should they trust you to get them there?

Also, you again spoke of the apparent letdown you all experienced by Bishop Myers signing of the letter that went out from the PC. I know and I believe what you all have stated about the PC, not releasing, well shall we say, "the entire truth" in that letter, and God knows we witnessed comments, very strong and ugly comments that certain Bishops on the PC were basically "scheming b-------" from the SC clergy only discussion board.

You also seemed to be awaiting some sort of response from your Bishop of why he succumbed the way he did at the PC and even agreed to sign the letter. My question is this HAS YOUR BISHOP RESPONDED IN ANY WAY AS TO WHY HE DID WHAT HE DID?

You men are asking for patience and time from your congregations, I understand that. But can you honestly yet begin to say just what the heck is going on?

I am not trying to contend with you, I honestly am trying to find out just how I may support you men in prayer and encouragement. Your posts and the posts of Father Rusty are well intentioned, but they are filled with a great deal of "just trust us to work this out."

I honestly don't know if you guys have that luxury right now..

Let's take a guess at this--I might be way off base, but:

1. I like +Myers a lot. Great preacher and engaging personality.
2. Most of the people in the CEC are men and women of God, who are TRYING to love the Lord.
3. I count +Myers in that category.
4. That being so, I assume he would want a Godly, loving, resolution, if possible, and since I don't see him wanting to be Patriarch or anything OTHER than simply a bishop to his people, let's ASSUME he was simply trying to do the "right and best" thing.
5. I haven't seen such a document. It is possible he didn't physically "sign" anything, but his name simply appears on it as "having signed on" to it. Perhaps he gave a verbal ok, or voiced no objection.
6. Perhaps the version that appeared is not worded exactly as he understood it to be worded. And therefore perhaps he feels betrayed all over again, or manipulated.
7. Perhaps he in turn received a promise by +Adler to step down, which subsequent events shortly proved to be so riddled with conditions as to amount to nothing.

Only +Myers and the SC clergy know, but I tend to give people a break and assume the best.

Here! Here! Exactly!

They absolutly don't have that luxury. If they ignore that fact it will be at their own peril!!


Rochus

That is the whole problem. It has been for 14 years. The good old boys club is/was the culture of the CEC.

See my reply earlier in this thread!

The problem is that the Bishops, including +Myers have catagorically failed to understand human nature and leadership requirements.

+Myers may very well be a wonderful fellow whom you'd love to take a trip to Spain with but.........a wonderful fellow does not a Bishop make! Thats the whole problem with the CEC!

Rochus

Yeah, but Rochus, think about it this way:

After the meeting a week ago, ALL the SC clergy resigned with him, and I'm sure these questions were asked. So +Myers MUST have had an answer to the paradox that satisfied ALL of them.

The way this seems to be playing out is precisely part of the CEC problem...they may be leaving the guys but taking the system.....! I agree they do not have the luxury of saying "trust us"....! That CEC mantra will not do even for those of us staying! That was the +Howard slogan as things unfolded until the chocolate hit the fan. Does anyone know if the laity took part in these SC provnce deliberations and heard all sides before the momentous decision was made?

for the sake of your sorrowful passion......have mercy on us!

seraph

They all resigned and then he followed them!
Kinda like - all the subjects are gone so there's no one to rule anymore!

Hold! Hold! Hold! Hold!

We're going to do it right this time!