Moderator's Note:

Just some quick points:

1) The previous CEC thread was getting long and cumbersome again, so I have closed it. I will post a link to this new thread.

2) I am asking that everyone be careful in what is said, and in how things are said.

3) I am also asking that discussions be kept on topic. We now have several CEC threads dealing with several specific issues. Let's stay on topic and not cross-post.

4) I would also encourage greater use of the "prayer request" portion of the forum. All of us (myself included) probably need much more time in prayer, and much less time in argument!

Thank you for your attention. We are now open again for discussion.

Blessings,

I am re-posting David B.'s guidelines from the last thread. I would ask that they be taken very seriously.

I want to add something here. David B. and I take this point VERY seriously. Let's all remember Jesus' admonition. If you have an offense against your brother, go to your brother first. If you really hate this forum so much that you can't do this, please go elsewhere.

I wholeheartedly agree and want to re-affirm what David B. has said. So far, only one person is currently banned outright, and there are (and have been) very few actual suspensions. In all cases, this has NOT been due to opinions, but rather to actions.

I decided to bring this over from the closed thread since no one had time to respond to it before it closed for the weekend. I pray that God will continue to have His way as we seek His Will and Ways in all of these matters.
(I did edit one line to communicate what I intended to say better)

[/QUOTE](Samwise @ Oct 13 2006, 06:51 AM)

+Jones, I hear from a SEP clergy, has been having clericus throughout the SEP and announcing that the "crisis is mostly over", that what was left is stronger and will move forward and that things are on the up and up.[QUOTE]




Although I have not heard this yet, I expect to as we approach the SEP November Convocation.
Knowing this could stir the pot today I will attempt to speculate what this "crisis is mostly over" could mean from the "those who remain" side of things.

1) Those leaders who have been in personal conflict with either recent or past events and concerned with the direction of the CEC have left. All attempts made to reconcile were not successful.
2) The issues that may need to be dealt with as it relates to ++Adler are being handled properly (but not publically) see PC letter.
3) Trying to eliminate the acknowledged mistakes of the past, steps are being taken for better accountability from the top down.
4) Understanding there has been a tremendous breakdown in defining who the CEC is there are efforts in place to outline that better.
5) The Bishops that are left are committed to resolving any remaining differences between themselves as they remain in fellowship together.
6) Canon Simpson will be the first of a new group Godly men that God will use to begin to rebuild and reshape the leadership of the CEC. There will be great effort to learn and move forward from the past mistakes.

It is my prayer that over the next few months many will deal with the hearts of all of us and the Holy Spirit will begin the healing process for ALL involved. (those who left and those who stayed)

truth in mercy

For those of you who think all is well in the CEC and things are bound to change. You might want to take a look at this post on a blog from California. It seems as the ostrich head is buried 10 feet deep.


Another word from the Lord was shared in the men's retreat out in CA several weeks ago by Abp. Adler's son-in-law. He told all the men present that those who were leaving the CEC were captive to "the spirit of Esau" and that everyone departing the communion has sold their birthright for porridge. Everybody accepted this as God's word...but no one tested it or confirmed it because "he's such a godly man and moves in the things of the Spirit."

Hi:

These sound like reasonable responses and indeed what some of the bishops you mention have in fact already said.

How is it that you expect those of us who have not left to react to those....in skepticism, or with watchful concern yet hoping for the best?

Many clergy and laity have decided to leave the CEC en masse trusting their bishops and priests to lead them ...yet other of us out of love, trust for our bishops and clergy have chosen to stay.

There has been no massive rush home to Rome in our diocese, nor has our bishop called for anything other than prayer even as in private he has acknowledged the CEC has problems that need to be resolved in a godly manner. The lack of verifyable information from the dioceses in crisis also makes it difficult for us to know just what is going on....we feel no such crisis at our parish, nor hear it from our bishop when he has visited, nor feel compelled to flee...although very alarmed at the disintegration of our home.

The manner of leaving of half the bishops and faithful of the CEC is also a bit confusing. These men all supposedly at some point committed to the vision of convergent worship...yet each left to a different place, not pursuing communion as far as it stands even among themselves. Could this "band of brothers" all of whom experienced hurt in the CEC not keep the vision they say the CEC's leaders tainted and form some sort of a community we could all look to?

It seems it was every man for himself....Rome, Great lakes, Corpus Cristi and the Republic of Texas....! If that is the way the members of the HOB functioned, pretty much independently ...just like they left ....it is little wonder they were not able to effect any real change in the communion they helped form. A single priest or bishop, a lay person, a rector's council member may not be able to effect change...but imho half of the bishops in a communion certainly should be able to at least set the tone of conversation if they are united and committed. It was the persistence of people....persons, lay and clergy that eventually made a difference at Messiah in Jacsonville....over the wishes on an Archbishop a dynamic man many loved. I find it hard to believe 7 bishops committed toGod, their sheep and the vision of the CEC could not have done the same at their level.

Let us see waht the week brings, and the HOB and the new revelations out of Texas and other places....so far from where I stand it all looks kind of petty.

blessings

seraph

acording to the canons of the ICCEC the college of ArchBishops is a house of prayer and the House Of Bishops is nothing more than a house of prayer.
Canon One:

Canon Two:

The National Church or International Territory

Summary: The National Church or International Territory, encompassing all Provinces, Dioceses, Parishes or Congregations of a specified nation or territory, shall be under the direction of a National Bishop or Primate. The National Bishop or Primate shall chair his Council, and the Clergy and People shall work in consensus to establish and prosper God’s Church in the nation or territory.

I. The National Church or International Territory

A. The National Church

1. The National Church is comprised of one or more Dioceses within the boundaries of a nation, duly organized, authorized by and in communion with the Patriarch of the ICCEC.

2. The presiding ecclesiastical authority of a National Church depends on the size and development of the church.

a. A National Church comprised of a single Diocese shall have as its ecclesiastical authority the Diocesan Bishop.

b. A National Church comprised of a Province shall have as its ecclesiastical authority the Provincial Archbishop.

c. A National Church comprised of multiple Provinces shall have as its ecclesiastical authority the National Primate.

B. The International Territory is comprised of two or more National Churches under the jurisdiction of a territorial Primate, which is duly organized, authorized by, and in communion with the Patriarch of the ICCEC.

II. Government

A. When a National Church is a Diocese it shall follow the Canon on Diocesan Government.

B. When a National Church is a Province it shall follow the Canon on Provincial Government.

C. When a National Church or International Territory is comprised of multiple Provinces it shall follow the following Canon.

D. The Primate

1. The Primate of the National Church or International Territory shall not only have oversight of the National Church or International Territory, but shall have particular leadership in the life of his Province, Diocese and Parish.

2. The Primate is the ordinary authority on all matters of doctrine, worship, pastoral care, church order and discipline within the National Church or International Territory.

3. The Primate is an ex officio member of every Council of his jurisdiction.

E. The Office of the Primate

1. The Office of the Primate is the ecclesiastical and administrative headquarters for the National Church or International Territory.

2. The Office of the Primate serves the Primate by facilitating the implementation of the decisions of the Primate's Council and the House of Bishops, supporting the ministry of the Primate and providing coordination with the agencies of the National Church or International Territory.

3. The Office of the Primate administrates the collection and disbursement of the National Church funds.

4. The Primate may appoint a General Secretary who shall serve as special advisor and administrative assistant to the Primate. He may oversee, under the Primate's direction, the office of the Primate.

5. All National Church staff members serve at the pleasure of the Primate. He is the official employer of the National Church Office.

6. The Primate has the responsibility and authority in the disbursement of all National Church or International Territory funds. The Primate may use the Primate's Council and/or the Executive Finance Committee for advice and counsel in this regard.

F. Councils

1. The Primate's Council, comprised of all acting Archbishops and the General Secretary, is the authoritative Council for the National Church. The Primate's Council shall follow the rules of Government by Consensus.

d. The Primate's Council is the corporate and governing body of the National Church or International Territory.

e. The Primate's Council shall

i. Establish canons, policies and standards for the National Church or International Territory;

ii. Review annual financial reports from all Provinces;

iii. Present to the House of Bishops an annual national budget, proposed and modified canons, and other items for review, input and affirmation; and

iv. Oversee all budgets, activities and ministries of the agencies and councils of the church.

f. The Patriarch is an ex officio member of all Primate’s Councils in the Church. When present, it is the Patriarch’s privilege to preside.

2. The House of Bishops, comprised of all acting Bishops of the Church, represents all Provinces and Dioceses of the National Church.

g. The House of Bishops is first and foremost a House of Prayer.

h. The House serves as the administrative and advisory council of the National Church. It shall

i. Affirm all new and revised National Church and International Territory canons;

ii. Review and give input to the Primate's Council on reports made.

i. Chaplaincy to the House of Bishops

i. A Priest, with the approval of the ecclesiastical authority of the Diocese in which he is canonically resident, may be appointed by the Primate to serve as Chaplain to the House of Bishops.

ii. The Chaplain to the House of Bishops shall retain canonical residence and remain under the ecclesiastical jurisdiction of the Bishop of the Diocese.

iii. The Chaplain shall serve for a specified or open term, at the discretion of the Primate.

iv. Duties of the Chaplain may include leading prayers, presiding at Eucharists during sessions of the House of Bishops, and other ministry functions designated by the Primate.

v. At the discretion of the Primate, the Chaplain may attend open sessions of the House of Bishops.

G. Committees and Agencies

1. The Mission Development Agency is the missionary arm of the National Church or International Territory. The MDA exercises it’s ministry

j. within the jurisdiction of the National Church or International Territory,

k. with other National Churches or International Territories by the invitation of the respective ecclesiastical authority,

l. in undeveloped and developing areas where there is no local jurisdiction, under the auspices of the International Development Agency.

2. Executive Committees or Agencies are established to supply and support the responsibilities of governance of the Primate's Council.

H. National Convocations are gatherings of the people of a National Church or International Territory, together with its Priests and Bishops, as a family, for prayer, preaching, inspiration, and instruction. The purpose of the Convocation is to feed, equip and build up the Body of Christ.

I. The Primate may appoint officers to assist him in the administration of his duties.

III. Funding

A. The National See and the National Church Budget shall be funded by:

1. Sixty percent of the tithes of every Diocesan Cathedral

2. The tithe of each Provincial Cathedral

3. The tithe of each Province

B. The National See shall tithe to the Office of the Patriarch.

IV. Record keeping

A. Financial Accountability

1. The National Church shall keep accurate records of financial contributions.

2. The Primate's Council is responsible for the oversight and review of the National Budget.

m. The Primate, as chief levite, has first right to the tithe of the National Church and general and specific oversight thereof in consultation with the Primate's Council.

n. Offerings may be administered by the Primate or Staff at the discretion of the Primate in consultation with the Primate's Council

o. A review of the books by the Primate's Council may be conducted at any time should it be the consensus of the Primate's Council that such a review is necessary.

p. An audit of the National Church's books may be requested by the Patriarch at any time.

B. National Report: the Office of the Primate shall present an annual report including a financial report to the Primate's Council. A copy shall also be forwarded to the Patriarch.

Boy I just hate it when I have to agree with Ruckus! smile.

However, he does have a good point.

However, I also see a "couple" of things in this.

1. Not testing the spirits or the prophecies of leaders:
There seems to be a real difficulty with this type of thing in the Charismatic in a lot of places, not just the C.E.C..

How does one determine that someone "walks in the things of the spirit" id those things are not tested over time to see if they are of God or not.

It seems to me that within the Charismatic movement, if you have charisma, you are seen as a gifted leader and you are above all testing.
These means any person with really good sales skills can "win the day".

There is an old Zig- Zigler saying that pretty well seems to cover this.

If you can see John Jones, through John Jones eyes, you can sell John Jones, what John Jones buys.

Hmm, seems to be working pretty well in the Charismatic circles I have seen.

All the true Charismatic I know are quite, peaceful people that do not brag or draw attention to themselves or they’re gifting, they would never use them to try and manipulate people.

For the most part, if you don't know them, you would not know they are Charismatics.
They do not go for all this garbage we see, and have not been fooled by all we have gone through.

So, it seems to me that the people at the conference are responsible as well as the leaders there.

The leaders there are using scripture and position to manipulate and the people are allowing it by not doing what the Bible ands Holy Tradition say to do in these situations.
Anyway, those are my thoughts.

Lastly, Rochus, don't get excited about me agreeing with you, I am not going out to get a saint Benard dog!

I just believe that right is right, and on this, you are right, its just that I also hold the people at the retreat responsible as well.

My Love to you all,

in HIM,
Fr. Rusty,
Free and dang happy about it!

My Dear Fr. Rusty,

Kiss Freedom's ring! :D

Hi:

And just what are laity according to the canons and in practice......???? Exactly!!! Yet it was mainly laity who called +Howard into account, wrote letters to the patriach, spoke out during meetings, withheld their tithe at times.....and remained after he was outsted. Lower clergy not in his inner circle, pastored the sheep, questioned him and finally refused to leave the church with him or let him destroy it.

So then bishops have no voices, no backbones, no patience...just what did they not have that the laity at Messiah did?

I am not being judgemental only trying to make sense out of half the bishops of the CEC and the clergy's only solution to the crisis in the CEC is to all walk out in different directions...and leave the rest of us....in some cases even leaving the sheep.

blessings

seraph

Is it possible to direct us to what "blog" and the site address that this might be located?

Thank you


truth in mercy

PS- eyes wide open here (just for the record)

Seraph,

you miss several points in the bishops that have left. There are MAJOR theological differences here.

When I joined the CEC over 10 years ago, it was "sold" to me as a convergence of the 3 streams yes, but primarily Catholic in nature. IOW, as the early church was, so was the CEC - fully charismatice and fully evangelical WITHIN the Catholic. The prophecies, words and writings all pointed to the CEC supplanting Rome - becoming the Vatican, USA. "Rome will HAVE to deal with us." (Anyone remember this one?) I remember the THRILL of those attending a clergy retreat where a Jesuit priest kissed our bishops ring.

So to now have the CEC veer off to the charismatic, under a personality (Adler fed by Jones) is not only wierd, but completely out of balance. It is like the Congress firing the president, closing the executive branch and arresting all the judges - out of balance.

To further exacerbate the situation, Adler commits a public act of offense against +Myers wife while he was DRUNK, and the PC allows him to remain in the position of patriarch against scriptural mandate for character and behavior of bishops (1 TIm and Titus).

So ther is much more than "Petty-ness" that has caused this split. It is arrogance at the very top. It is "enabling behavior" at the very top. It is codependency and dysfunction at the very top and throughout the ranks of bishops that has caused this split.

It is the original consecration - both in its effect and its cause that is disturbing. Here were a group of Protestant pastors seeking a way into authentic Catholic Apostolic succession (so they could call themselves Catholic, by the way) without going through the PROPER CHANNELS OF VETTING.

How is that Christian??

Then to top it off, they were actually attempting to start something NEW even though there were several other groups doing the SAME THING.

How is that for unity?

Then the bishops created an "us" against "them" mentality in their prophecy and "words" therby seperating the CEC from any other body as something "special" for "such a time as this." Filling some perceived void in The Church Catholic.

So rather than working toward uniting, or actually bringing something to the table of The Church, it (the CEC) simply spent 14 years in glorious anonymity without even creating its own ethos - its own catechism - its own theology.

How is that for purpose?

And the seminary program never attained accreditation.

How is that for authenticity?

Nope. None of this has been handled properly and those that beleive it has been are in for a real crash someday in their Psychi.

This has been a Catholic "wannabe" experiment based on the personality of one man - Randy Adler, who was enabled by men with their own issues against the authority of the established church and wanting to establish a Protestant church over which to reign with a Catholic/Orthodox government while keeping the people under their control with the Charismatic/prophetic that cannot be challenged (in them only; they can challenge anyone else's prophecy though.)

Hope this helps cut through the mud a bit for you. It took me over ten years to finally see the light...and that with the help of conerned and loving friends helping me toward the light.

And no, I have not gone to Tony's home.

I probably would except for Rome's treatment of Charismatic Catholics, required celebacy of clergy and the Marian doctrines. Just can't grasp that yet. Thye are dealing with the abuse stuff though. The CEC could take some notes on that.

Oh, and BTW, it was the late +Costantino that threatened the Patriarch about Howard. Bates claims he was the one that stood in his face, but I suspect he actually stood in the shadow of +Costantino when the furr began to fly.

To John Paul Jones;
I agree with what you say . You are right on with your assesment.-----Bishop's birddog

JPJ,
So true! I heard, "We don't need Rome, Rome needs us!" :( The latter part of the statement is true while the former part is false. Rome does need the folks of the former CEC and vica versa.

Hi:

Thanks very much for your response...here are some thoughts and questions that arise for me...

I thought the theological diversity was a given for these men all came from different backgrounds into the CEC. In "non-essencials" charity I thought was very much part of the CEC ethos. Are those differences greater now so that they can no longer walk together ? I wonder.

You must have not been SE province then...all three streams "fully liturgical, charismatic and evangelical" has been the mantra there. No one stream was to encompass the rest. The spirituality in many SE province churches I have visited is not Catholic at all...charismatic, maybe Anglican in some places....but Catholic ..no, depite the prophecies.

Not from where I stand...respectfully. Messiah is more catholic since our Archbishop was deposed. As far as Adler and Jones their visits to us in the last 14 years can be counted on the finguers of one hand....there has hardly been a veer friend. The lower clergy at Messiah seem to be kinda evenly divided between charismatics and a couple with Anglican leanings...but we have not seen at a parish level any "charismatic" veering....it is less so now than it was.

This is awful and if true needs to behandled with professionalism and charity. Do you not trust the PC and HOB to? Why?

Does the arrogance and enabling apply to the top...those who left and those who stayed? Are those who left in some sense less dysfuctional?

How is that wrong? Why should the gift of Apostolic Sucession be restricted to only part of the bidy of Christ?

When I joined the CEC "convergence" was kind of an unheard of term and the communities that became asociated with "three streams" such as the CEEC, CCC were yet as unknown and as beggining as the CEC. Theological differences including the ordination of women and human pride may have had to do with why each group developed differently. Of those "convergence" communities all have different flavors still.

I understand this is how you perceive it . Others do see waht the CEC and other convergence communities brought to the table as something very needed, and filling a definite void. The sacraments in a Charismatic setting.....As far as own theology...the Church's theology is the CEC's theology.... we bring no novelty in theolgy to the table. Less than one generation and voila....own theology, ethos and catechism....isnt that a bit optimistic?

I have seen a lot blessing in my local parish, people come to Christ, reconciled w God, lots of blessing amidst pain....a lot of "purpose" in our being for the last 14 years.

write later

seraph

Could it be the CEC is dividing simply because, like Anglicanism, there are competing and sometimes mutually exclusive visions that are considered to represent the "true CEC?" Add into this a leader/leaders who actively rely on "prophetic words" and the identity of the CEC gets even more nebulous.

I am not trying to be flippant here, but just from this forum alone, there seems to be sharp disagreement about what exactly the CEC is and was.

The CEC is and forever shall be just like Lubby's Cafeteria:

You get your tray (Your Consecration as Bishop)
You get to go down the line:

Uhmmm No thank you I don't want any of that Catholic Stuff
Uhmmm I'll take a double helping of Charasmania
hummm Submission/Authority - No Thank you
mhhhhh Did you say single malt scotch whisky and Cubans...let me get another
tray.
Well Wow thats a new special - give me a double helping of Radical Grace.
Humm

and on and on and on and on ad nauseum.

You get to pick what you want and leave the rest. This is how the CEC was/is and how most of the ones who have left will remain to be(especially +Myers).

That my friends isn't the Church. Its something else........

Its called Protestantism!!! No Thank you...........

Rochus

I don't mean to stir the pot here, but I think it does need asking:

Wasn't the CEC founded and mostly grown from taking in (voluntarily of course) parishes and pastors from other denominations? Wasn't Bp. Lipka Catholic? Bp. Zampino Episcopalian, etc? I know many on here talk about CEC parishes being filled with ex-Catholics, ex-all kinds of stuff. I think it is a little hard to expect folks to be eternally loyal to a church that has grown pretty much from getting folks from other denominations.

Now, don't get me wrong, I see absolutely nothing wrong with following one's conscience to join another church. However, if your church was founded and grown using this method, it is problematic to complain when folks leave for the same reasons.

David

Rochus,

I believe this was posted on here by John Paul Jones (?) last week wasn't it?

David

So Father Rusty, Fr Mark et.al.

What was the big letter read to the parishes from the Bishop?

Care to post it?

Rochus

What differences are there? Can you tell me??

Has anyone defined the "essentials"?

Has anyone defined the "non-essentials"??

Where can one draw the line?

Which councils again?

Which portions of which councils again?

(I am talking like a fool here...)

There is NO CEC theology or ethos as they have not spent any scholarly time developing it! Doesn't exist!

The very point of Apostolic Succession is to limit "theological diversity!! To keep the message the same and to prevent heresy from invading the community.

How do you protect for "harmful" diversity without knowing the essentials?

Yes - I agree .. This is and will be a key element to establishing and mainting unity.

Undertaking a re-unified expression and practice of the Christian Church that can be determined, agreed upon, and sustained, will take some wise and fine doctrinal/theological work, a lot more integrity from clergy at all levels, especially the bishops, but also a whole lot of love and patience to correct and stay the course. As we can see, it ain't easy.

Actually, I started out in the CEC in the SE province and was there for about 4 years. Helped birht a church there as well. And yes, it was fully three streams which is what attracted me after leaving ECUSA 6 years previously.

The parishes I was involved in were more Anglican - which is Protestant Catholic - and yes I was well informed of the thrust of the national body even then and there was a lot of Catholic talk.

I remember meeting Adler back then (even had lunch with him) and he struck me as an odd bird. Almost brooding. Of course we though it was great to have him at our tiny mission. But I was not impressed with any sprituality at the time eminating from him. He certainly was not the mythical creature that Sursum Corda made him appear to be.

If I had to characterize the event, I would have to say not very impressive.

[quote-seraph]Not from where I stand...respectfully. Messiah is more catholic since our Archbishop was deposed. As far as Adler and Jones their visits to us in the last 14 years can be counted on the finguers of one hand....there has hardly been a veer friend. [/quote]

Perhaps not a Messiah, but nationally there has been.

[quote-seraph]The lower clergy at Messiah seem to be kinda evenly divided between charismatics and a couple with Anglican leanings...but we have not seen at a parish level any "charismatic" veering....it is less so now than it was.[/quote]

This is a good thing then. But what do you mean by "lower clergy"?

Rochus,

I don't know if you know this but Ella Wheeler Wilcox was part of the New Thought movement which is of the occult. She wrote some good poetry but to continue to use her words as part of your signature just doesn't seem right when you look at what she stood for and her beliefs. About her can be found here at http://ellawheelerwilcox.wwwhubs.com/


Alberta

Have you not been reading here on the forum or listening to the charges? Have you not read Myers letter? Have you no clergy friends in the SC province to talk to? Sadly, it is true. Bates even said so. Other bishops have confirmed it. Do you not believe them?

That may be good for Adler, but it is desastrous for the body of Christ. It shows that all clergy below the level of patriarch may be disciplined and removed from ministry for such actions, but not the head guy?? This would in no way be tolerated by the Early Church Father's were they to do it properly. Their writings clearly indicate that such behavior would be harshly dealt with for the sake of the church. But that is part of what Apostolic Succession is about.

Not to mention the fact that it is sin against the church! Against you as a congregant! Has nothing to do with mercy; has everything to do with the integrity of The Church and not casting a bad rep on Christ.

The reason for Paul's instruction to Timothy was to protect the Church - the Body of Christ - from bad reputation which would make it nearly impossible to gain converts and show a truly better way! It ruins credibility and authenticity.

Too many people throw around the word charity. Even Sodomite Groups are using it to great effect to make their case (for opening up marriage to more than one man and one woman) to those in government that are marginal in their faith (at best) and ignorant of Church history.

The best way I can think of to illustrate would be the Monty Python sketch of the knight defending the log who is bested by the approaching knight who wants to pass, who describs the hacking off of a limb a "'tis but a scratch."

To date, the PC has not in any way proven themselves capable of doing the right thing (see commnets above about Paul's writings in scripture.) If they were, Adler would have been made to step down for the sake of the church.

But as one priest told me that when +Myers talked to Adler on the phone and reiterated his demand for him to step down, Adler was arrogant (or delusional?) enough to think that if he were to do that, "the worldwide CEC would collapse."

Perhaps the solution for Rochus is to remove the attributation to her.

The statement still holds true though.

Hi:

Oops ...that is right...no bishops there anymore!

I guess I should say the clergy ; priests and deacons. Maybe one at the most 2 "Catholics" in the whole bunch. And among the laity.... "Catholics" maybe a couple at the Hispanic service. The rest are and have always been Charismatic....no changes there.

later

seraph

It would be much more believable if Rochus said it cause Rochus defiantly does not sin by silence :D heheha


Has any one heard anything out of the HOB yet or is it still to soon?

Alberta

WOW!!!

Did I just read your post right?? Are you saying that the Church does not have the right to restrict who receives apostolic succession???

1) It is not a gift, it is a protection.

2) Only those that have been vetted by bishops in apostolic succession can lay hands on those to follow them.

3) That is exactly what every occultic and heretical group has said for 2000 years as well in theri attempt to challenge the selective exclusion of the Church to only those that repent and are baptised and adhere to the creed!!

I am rather dumbfounded here....don't quite know what to say in response!

So I suppose it is then like chosing a flavor of soda?

Or perhaps, we like grape juice or coke instead of wine...or crackers or pancakes iunstead of wheat bread for our "supper".

Where is the unity? It sounds like "Us vs. Them" to me.

I changed my signature. I'm sure some will like it and others not!

Rochus

Seraph,

You, and so many others are asking the wrong Question Before the Question (QBQ). The real question is not what do I prefer? The real question is not what can the Bishops agree upon.

The Real question is what does GOD prefer? If you ask yourself that question you will most certainly find that God has preferred the historic Church. He hasn't preferred schismatic denominations. He has preferred the ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and Apostolic Church.

Two choices when you ask the right Question:

Roman Catholic

or

Orthodoxy!

Why are so many men such cowards when it comes to this question.

Rochus

:lol: :lol: :lol:

JPJ,
Good point.

The problem is that you can't have real unity unless you have some kind of unifying belief. And appealing to the "essentials" doesn't cut it, as you mentioned before, because nobody can even agree on those. I think, as I said earlier, the CEC seems to be splitting up precisely because what the CEC was and stood for varied depending on whom you asked.

David

Well I like it, very original.... Prose maybe your specialty.
Has any one heard anything out of the HOB yet or is it still to soon?

A.

JPJ,

Could it be that way back then you were being guided by "The Holy Spirit" into what was the truth and what was not??? While I'm a newbie to CEC I thought I had found a step up from the entanglements of ECUSA and The Anglican Mission in America (AMiA) where I had gone to following the Robinson ordination.

Now out of all, and I mean ALL I have read about the parting of ways in the CEC in this forum, the one point that stands above all others is; Randy Adler is not what he is supposed to be, but is what he seems to be! I remember when I first saw the portrait of a young, cherubic Patriarch in the church I went to that my heart felt a spike because I didn't feel the vision of a great leader. I've come to know that spike very well,.. it IS The Holy Spirit guiding me.

I've come to know some very Godly men in this church and through this forum and I can say I hope to see them down the road. Sadly I can't say it will be where Randy Adler is....

Roy

I'm not sure if this is the correct place for this post. But I do have a couple of questions.

1. I was told by someone teaching at one of the Saint Michael's branches that some prominent Orthodox convert (Peter Gillquist I believe) had visited the Cathedral in San Clemente and told Adler that the Lord had told him that the CEC would be "the Orthodox" church in America in ten years. Does anyone know anything about this? Has anyone else heard this? I cannot believe it myself.

2. Also from the same place: A student in one of the classes I took made the statement that the CEC was moving too much in a Catholic direction. He was corrected by the instructor and told that the Archbishop of that Province had made the statement that the CEC was moving in a decidedly Orthodox direction. Any comment on this statement?

3. Finally, I also was told at St. Michael's that the Pope had given some sort of approval to the CEC and had recognized their sacraments as valid.

Are all of these examples of sales lines from the CEC? Has anyone else been sold a bill of goods like these in order to bring you into the CEC? Is there any validity (no pun intended) to any of these statements? Just wondering.

Roy my friend, as always I find your words wise.....I too hope to see you down the road..... Where ever the Holy Spirit leads.

A.

Rochus (and/or the Dog) I like your new signature. I didn't mind your old one, though. I had looked up the author quoted as well. I still say she spoke the truth in that case, at least.

Quote (1. I was told by someone teaching at one of the Saint Michael's branches that some prominent Orthodox convert (Peter Gillquist I believe) had visited the Cathedral in San Clemente and told Adler that the Lord had told him that the CEC would be "the Orthodox" church in America in ten years. Does anyone know anything about this? Has anyone else heard this? I cannot believe it myself.)

This is not true.
I have had dinner with Fr. Gilquist and asked him about this, he said that it is in no way true at all.
He did try to get ++Adler to continue the journey to Orthodoxy to no good result.

If you desire to know the truth of this for yourself, why not call Fr. Peter, his number is not hard to get and he does answer his calls or returns them if he is not there.

in HIM,
Fr. Rusty