I don't expect that you will find that they are in communion with Rome!
| QUOTE (David Zampino @ Mar 13 2007, 08:52 AM) |
|
I don't expect that you will find that they are in communion with Rome!
|
I doubt they are. It all seems very shady to me. Interesting but shady.
| QUOTE (collin_nunis @ Mar 13 2007, 10:07 AM) |
| QUOTE (David Zampino @ Mar 13 2007, 08:52 AM) | |
I don't expect that you will find that they are in communion with Rome!
|
I doubt they are. It all seems very shady to me. Interesting but shady.
|
Collin, I agree. You know, there is a Vatican Congregation for the Eastern Churches in Communion with Rome. I'll bet that the Vatican website would have links.
Blessings,
| QUOTE (collin_nunis @ Mar 13 2007, 10:07 AM) |
| QUOTE (David Zampino @ Mar 13 2007, 08:52 AM) | |
I don't expect that you will find that they are in communion with Rome!
|
I doubt they are. It all seems very shady to me. Interesting but shady.
|
re: His Beatitude, Metropolitan Dr. Mar Mikhael of Edessa, O.S.J
found this .... think it is same person, it says he's part of Eastern Catholic Church in second link, and the eastercatholicchurch website lists
Daly City, California as the mailing address...so it seems the link is connected somehow.
http://starbulletin.com/2004/12/04/features/story5.htmlthere may or may not be some association with a supposed deceased Bishop Michael Itkin, who was also later known as Mar Michael....
from this link ....
http://www.lgbtran.org/Profile.aspx?ID=14"On a personal note, I had a close friend who started a new religion. The late Mikhail Itkin (1936-1989) started his own version of Christianity, which eventually morphed into the Holy Apostolic Catholic Church of the East (Chaldean-Syrian). Having absorbed Old Catholicism, Anglicanism, and Quakerism (among other Christian denominations) he at length adopted the Syrian tradition as his bedrock. He reasoned that since Jesus spoke Aramaic (an assumption now questioned by some scholars), the Christians in Syria had preserved the most authentic version. Perhaps he was able to absorb a wide variety of influences, more or less impartially, because he had been brought up in the Jewish faith (not unlike Our Lord, he would say, though Mikhail was certainly not a Jew for Jesus).
Bishop Itkin repeatedly altered his theology and liturgy to reflect the twists and turns of gay liberation (his central commitment), feminism, ecology, and other present-minded issues. The liturgy varied accordingly. It may be that he was too smart to found a durable church, because he kept changing the groundplan, based on sophisticated reading and reflection. This variability, combined with his lack of personal charisma, severely limited the growth of the church. At one point he claimed fifteen parishes, though from what I was able to tell most existed in name only. He had one faithful priest, a woman. They would hold services even if only one or two persons showed up. I doubt that Bishop Itkin’s church long survived him. Unfortunately, I have misplaced the literature that he gave me as part of his missionary efforts."
http://www.lgbtran.org/Profile.aspx?ID=14http://andrejkoymasky.com/liv/fam/bioi1/itki1.htmlHere's a link that connect all three
http://www.geocities.com/moorishorthodoxchurch/ITKIN2.html
No Collin, it is not an Eastern Catholic Church. It is a group - that might just be a "bishop" in the sad tradition of the Episopi Vagantes movement.
A quick look at the histrory of the "ECC" on the webpage and the discerning Catholic historian will likely recognize in short order the group for what it is - yet another SAD case of ego and schism.
Where did those bishops come from? Let's look!
A good deal of these
Episcopi vagantes come from apostlic successions and episcopal consecrations taht are dubious at best. They stem from some REAL characters that were around about 100 years ago including a Frenchman named
Joseph René Vilatte who had been consecrated by a breakaway Roman Catholic diocese in India under the protection of the
Jacobite (Oriental Orthodox) Patriarch. Think "Western Rite Jacobite Uniate" or something.....
Joseph René Vilatte died in reconciled to the Catholic Church as a layman in a French monastery.
Others can be tied to
Arnold Harris Mathewwho was ordained in Utrecht by a presumably valid bishop of the the
Utrecht Union. Harris went a long merrily consecrating this that and the other fellow - married, single, divorced, etc to be priests, bishops and the like. (When he died he had been attending Church of England services and was buried as a lay Anglican.)
Those fellows these two consecrated went on to do the same and the same and the same. Today we can thank them for such institutions as the Independent Catholic Churches, Liberal Catholic Church , and the
Catholic Apostolic Church of Antioch of the Mallabar Rite. The last one is rather a mouthful isn't it?
Well the last one is actually headed by the grand Most Reverend
Meri Spruit, Archbishop Matriarch of the Catholic Apostolic Church of Antioch Malabar Rite !
Interestingly, the CEC bishops were originally consecrated by a bishop who had been consecrated by the grand Most Reverend
Meri Spruit, Archbishop Matriarch of the Catholic Apostolic Church of Antioch Malabar Rite ! Later they went on to be re-consecrated by a bishop from the
"Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church" but those poor men - hoping for the best of it, are also in good company with the likes of
Old Catholic Church now dba as the National Apotolic Church . (More on them later...)
To boot there are a few renegade Orthodox bishops who consecrated thier own
Episcopi vagantes. But getting into who, in the Orthodox east, constitutes an
Episcopi vagantes would take a book. Maybe later...
More than a few of them will go out “consecration hunting” and find bishops from Continuing Anglican Bodies just to try to re-affirm that somewhere along the line, seeking ordination from Independent Catholic Churches, Renegade Eastern Orthodox, Continuing Anglican Bodies etc. At one point he (or she!) may pull out a dozen charts to demonstrate that somewhere along the line, somehow, as if by magic, they are pretty sure they are valid in Rome’s eyes. After all, they have been ordained by dozens of bishops, one of them must have been valid! Some people follow NASCAR, some people go to dog shows, some people spend their weekends getting consecrated and reconsecrated bishops.)
(Of course how could you prove it? I mean if you or I went bat-poop crazy and wanted people to call us "Patriarch Simple Sinner" or "Grand Catholicos of the Americas and Iberian Peninsula Collin" we could sit down and type out that we had been consecrated by Bishop Bob, who had been consecrated my Patriarch Tom, who had been consecrated by Mar Luigi, who had been consecrated by Metropolitan Skip, who had been consecrated by Prince-Archbishop Trevor...
"SEE, we have a paper to PROVE it!!")
Ironically many of these "groups" want it both ways. As a friend of mine "Irish Melkite" posted
here:
| QUOTE |
| The Augustinian theory effectively holds that valid episcopal ordination confers an indelible character that is not affected by any schismatic or heretical act or excommunication taken in response thereto or for any other reason. Accordingly, a validly ordained priest once validly ordained to the episcopate retains his capacity to exercise that order, though he may have been deprived juridically of the office or jurisdiction by which he performed episcopal acts. The latter considerations affect only the licitness of his acts. |
In other words, the Roman Catholic general view...
BUT these folks try to justify their "autogenic" existence with appeal to Eastern Orthodox thought and ancient canons... and yet the Eastern thought on the orders they try to justify can be summed up:
| QUOTE |
| The Cyprianic theory effectively holds that a valid episcopal ordination is affected by schismatic or heretical acts and by excommunication taken in response thereto or for any other reason. Accordingly, a validly ordained priest once validly ordained to the episcopate retains his capacity to exercise that order only so long as he continues in communion with the jurisdiction under the authority of which he was ordained to the episcopate (or such other jurisdiction into which he may have subsequently been accepted) and is exercising the office or jurisdiction by which he has the right to perform those acts. There is no distinction made as to licitness. |
So they are just Augustinian enough to be possed of valid orders, and just Eastern enough to justify their self creation? (Though one would be hard-pressed to find a mainstream Eastern Orthodox theologian worth his salt that would grant any merit to a self-created body that offers no filial loyalty or obedience to a mother church...)
(Seems to me that the single group that benefits the most from all of these Episcopi vagantes would be mail-order vestment catalogs. Many of them have outfits that out-do the Pope of Rome or the Archbishop of Caneterbury or the Patriarch of Constantinople on their best days! My favorites are the ones that mix & match and combine really obscure, esoteric Greek and Oriental and Latin vestments. One thing I can say about these folks, unlike most American Roman Catholic bishops, they at least love to dress the part!)
Most of these bishops have no congregations per se.. They ordain a few priests and deacons - married, unmarried, male, female, lesbian couples, whatever... maybe a dog or two. And in short order THOSE folks end being consecrated bishops and then ordain their own Episcopi vagantes.
The Catholic Apostolic National Church comes to mind as an exceptional example of this. Go check out their pictures...
Now before going on, I want to know where are the faithful? Where are the buildings? I mean buildings don't prove a vitality, but in order to buy and maintain one, the presense of tithing discipled faithful are most likely needed. So where are the bricks and mortars? The kindly pious old retired gent that shovels the snow and cuts the grass? The people who are fed and nourished in faith and growth in Christ? Well I can't find pictures or evidence of ANY of that at that website
I counted 32 pictures. Two were of altars in chapels NOT belonging to this church. One was a picture of Bishop Gubalas Episcopal throne. At the "preistly ordination of Andre' Queen" there were a total of 3 people who looked like they could be laity seated in an empty chapel. There appeared to be FIVE clerics.
Now the keen observer will scroll down and notice there are photographs of a certain Deacon Andre' Queen being ordained to the preisthood, six short photos later there are pictures of Bishop Andre' Queen standing next to a man HE just ordained a deacon. At the end you will see photographs of Bishop Queen addressing the Patrarch on "the state of the Church in the US" That is a meteoric rise to responsibility!
Come on! It is photograph after photograph of guys dressed like shepards in a field with no sheep.
These folks often engage in intrigue, have schisms, and have churches that are in thier garages, on the web, or simply on stationary. They take turns consecrating and reconsecrating and excommunicating and anathemizing each other. They adopt grand titles like Patriarch, Matriarch, Archbishop, Mar, Catholicos, etc... and have Churches with names like Catholic Apostolic Church of Antioch Malabar Rite or "Ancient Orthodox Catholic Autocephalous Church of North America". Many of them grant titles under odd sounding "Military orders" such as:
The Noble Russian Orthodox Order of St. John of Jerusalem Hospitallar,. AKA - Russian Orthodox Knights of Malta with
His Eminence The Patriarch, Grand Duke, Dr., Chief Alexander Swift Eagle Justice .D., Ph.D., J.D. -Theologian, Academician Native Metropolitan/Archbishop founder of Keepers of Creation Church to Serve the Native American Community in the entire Western Hemisphere at the helm...
(This guy issues his own passports and wears (alternately) Latin Rite or Greek Style Episcopal vestments. I cannot say if he alternates based on a liturgical calendar or if he simply wears whatever is clean while the other sets are at the dry cleaners.)
Oh I could go on and on and on and on. Why bother? If you are interested in finding out about these types just google "Independtant Catholic" "Independant Orthodox" "Western Rite Orthodox" “Celtic Orthodox” “British Orthodox” “British Catholic” “Native American Catholic” or dozens of other odd monikers and descriptions.
1) They are not Catholics
2) They are almost universally flakes calling themselves bishops who do not deserve the recognition that being talked about by Rome would afford them
Collin, please don't be fooled or taken off track by the likes of these individuals and groups offering a fantasy of ecclesial reality.
Today, as for the past 2000 years, Christianity is filled with paths that lead away from the fullness of the faith as lead by folks who are sometimes sincere and sometimes just plain charlatains.
But today, just as in the past 2000 years we can find our way past the snake-handlers, gnostics, arians, and the like by putting our faith in Our Lord when he said (Matt 16:18) "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church,"
Ambrose of Milan was write when he wrote “Where Peter is, there is the Church”.
The Catholic Church is still visible today, the gates of hell have not prevailed. Accept no substitutes.
-A Simple Sinner
| QUOTE (A Simple Sinner @ Mar 16 2007, 10:13 PM) |
No Collin, it is not an Eastern Catholic Church. It is a group - that might just be a "bishop" in the sad tradition of the Episopi Vagantes movement. A quick look at the histrory of the "ECC" on the webpage and the discerning Catholic historian will likely recognize in short order the group for what it is - yet another SAD case of ego and schism. Where did those bishops come from? Let's look! A good deal of these Episcopi vagantes come from apostlic successions and episcopal consecrations taht are dubious at best. They stem from some REAL characters that were around about 100 years ago including a Frenchman named Joseph René Vilatte who had been consecrated by a breakaway Roman Catholic diocese in India under the protection of the Jacobite (Oriental Orthodox) Patriarch. Think "Western Rite Jacobite Uniate" or something..... Joseph René Vilatte died in reconciled to the Catholic Church as a layman in a French monastery. Others can be tied to Arnold Harris Mathewwho was ordained in Utrecht by a presumably valid bishop of the the Utrecht Union. Harris went a long merrily consecrating this that and the other fellow - married, single, divorced, etc to be priests, bishops and the like. (When he died he had been attending Church of England services and was buried as a lay Anglican.) Those fellows these two consecrated went on to do the same and the same and the same. Today we can thank them for such institutions as the Independent Catholic Churches, Liberal Catholic Church , and the Catholic Apostolic Church of Antioch of the Mallabar Rite. The last one is rather a mouthful isn't it? Well the last one is actually headed by the grand Most Reverend Meri Spruit, Archbishop Matriarch of the Catholic Apostolic Church of Antioch Malabar Rite ! Interestingly, the CEC bishops were originally consecrated by a bishop who had been consecrated by the grand Most Reverend Meri Spruit, Archbishop Matriarch of the Catholic Apostolic Church of Antioch Malabar Rite ! Later they went on to be re-consecrated by a bishop from the "Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church" but those poor men - hoping for the best of it, are also in good company with the likes of Old Catholic Church now dba as the National Apotolic Church . (More on them later...) To boot there are a few renegade Orthodox bishops who consecrated thier own Episcopi vagantes. But getting into who, in the Orthodox east, constitutes an Episcopi vagantes would take a book. Maybe later... More than a few of them will go out “consecration hunting” and find bishops from Continuing Anglican Bodies just to try to re-affirm that somewhere along the line, seeking ordination from Independent Catholic Churches, Renegade Eastern Orthodox, Continuing Anglican Bodies etc. At one point he (or she!) may pull out a dozen charts to demonstrate that somewhere along the line, somehow, as if by magic, they are pretty sure they are valid in Rome’s eyes. After all, they have been ordained by dozens of bishops, one of them must have been valid! Some people follow NASCAR, some people go to dog shows, some people spend their weekends getting consecrated and reconsecrated bishops.) (Of course how could you prove it? I mean if you or I went bat-poop crazy and wanted people to call us "Patriarch Simple Sinner" or "Grand Catholicos of the Americas and Iberian Peninsula Collin" we could sit down and type out that we had been consecrated by Bishop Bob, who had been consecrated my Patriarch Tom, who had been consecrated by Mar Luigi, who had been consecrated by Metropolitan Skip, who had been consecrated by Prince-Archbishop Trevor... "SEE, we have a paper to PROVE it!!") Ironically many of these "groups" want it both ways. As a friend of mine "Irish Melkite" posted here: | QUOTE | | The Augustinian theory effectively holds that valid episcopal ordination confers an indelible character that is not affected by any schismatic or heretical act or excommunication taken in response thereto or for any other reason. Accordingly, a validly ordained priest once validly ordained to the episcopate retains his capacity to exercise that order, though he may have been deprived juridically of the office or jurisdiction by which he performed episcopal acts. The latter considerations affect only the licitness of his acts. |
In other words, the Roman Catholic general view...
BUT these folks try to justify their "autogenic" existence with appeal to Eastern Orthodox thought and ancient canons... and yet the Eastern thought on the orders they try to justify can be summed up:
| QUOTE | | The Cyprianic theory effectively holds that a valid episcopal ordination is affected by schismatic or heretical acts and by excommunication taken in response thereto or for any other reason. Accordingly, a validly ordained priest once validly ordained to the episcopate retains his capacity to exercise that order only so long as he continues in communion with the jurisdiction under the authority of which he was ordained to the episcopate (or such other jurisdiction into which he may have subsequently been accepted) and is exercising the office or jurisdiction by which he has the right to perform those acts. There is no distinction made as to licitness. |
So they are just Augustinian enough to be possed of valid orders, and just Eastern enough to justify their self creation? (Though one would be hard-pressed to find a mainstream Eastern Orthodox theologian worth his salt that would grant any merit to a self-created body that offers no filial loyalty or obedience to a mother church...) (Seems to me that the single group that benefits the most from all of these Episcopi vagantes would be mail-order vestment catalogs. Many of them have outfits that out-do the Pope of Rome or the Archbishop of Caneterbury or the Patriarch of Constantinople on their best days! My favorites are the ones that mix & match and combine really obscure, esoteric Greek and Oriental and Latin vestments. One thing I can say about these folks, unlike most American Roman Catholic bishops, they at least love to dress the part!) Most of these bishops have no congregations per se.. They ordain a few priests and deacons - married, unmarried, male, female, lesbian couples, whatever... maybe a dog or two. And in short order THOSE folks end being consecrated bishops and then ordain their own Episcopi vagantes. The Catholic Apostolic National Church comes to mind as an exceptional example of this. Go check out their pictures... Now before going on, I want to know where are the faithful? Where are the buildings? I mean buildings don't prove a vitality, but in order to buy and maintain one, the presense of tithing discipled faithful are most likely needed. So where are the bricks and mortars? The kindly pious old retired gent that shovels the snow and cuts the grass? The people who are fed and nourished in faith and growth in Christ? Well I can't find pictures or evidence of ANY of that at that website I counted 32 pictures. Two were of altars in chapels NOT belonging to this church. One was a picture of Bishop Gubalas Episcopal throne. At the "preistly ordination of Andre' Queen" there were a total of 3 people who looked like they could be laity seated in an empty chapel. There appeared to be FIVE clerics. Now the keen observer will scroll down and notice there are photographs of a certain Deacon Andre' Queen being ordained to the preisthood, six short photos later there are pictures of Bishop Andre' Queen standing next to a man HE just ordained a deacon. At the end you will see photographs of Bishop Queen addressing the Patrarch on "the state of the Church in the US" That is a meteoric rise to responsibility! Come on! It is photograph after photograph of guys dressed like shepards in a field with no sheep. These folks often engage in intrigue, have schisms, and have churches that are in thier garages, on the web, or simply on stationary. They take turns consecrating and reconsecrating and excommunicating and anathemizing each other. They adopt grand titles like Patriarch, Matriarch, Archbishop, Mar, Catholicos, etc... and have Churches with names like Catholic Apostolic Church of Antioch Malabar Rite or "Ancient Orthodox Catholic Autocephalous Church of North America". Many of them grant titles under odd sounding "Military orders" such as: The Noble Russian Orthodox Order of St. John of Jerusalem Hospitallar,. AKA - Russian Orthodox Knights of Malta with His Eminence The Patriarch, Grand Duke, Dr., Chief Alexander Swift Eagle Justice .D., Ph.D., J.D. -Theologian, Academician Native Metropolitan/Archbishop founder of Keepers of Creation Church to Serve the Native American Community in the entire Western Hemisphere at the helm... (This guy issues his own passports and wears (alternately) Latin Rite or Greek Style Episcopal vestments. I cannot say if he alternates based on a liturgical calendar or if he simply wears whatever is clean while the other sets are at the dry cleaners.) Oh I could go on and on and on and on. Why bother? If you are interested in finding out about these types just google "Independtant Catholic" "Independant Orthodox" "Western Rite Orthodox" “Celtic Orthodox” “British Orthodox” “British Catholic” “Native American Catholic” or dozens of other odd monikers and descriptions. 1) They are not Catholics 2) They are almost universally flakes calling themselves bishops who do not deserve the recognition that being talked about by Rome would afford them Collin, please don't be fooled or taken off track by the likes of these individuals and groups offering a fantasy of ecclesial reality. Today, as for the past 2000 years, Christianity is filled with paths that lead away from the fullness of the faith as lead by folks who are sometimes sincere and sometimes just plain charlatains. But today, just as in the past 2000 years we can find our way past the snake-handlers, gnostics, arians, and the like by putting our faith in Our Lord when he said (Matt 16:18) "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church," Ambrose of Milan was write when he wrote “Where Peter is, there is the Church”. The Catholic Church is still visible today, the gates of hell have not prevailed. Accept no substitutes. -A Simple Sinner |
I didn't. One look and i knew it. No bishop who believes in married clergy will allow clergy to get married AFTER ordination. In keeping with what Paul said in 1 Timothy 3:4-5.
Besides, I knew something was wrong when it only talked about him. No parishes, no other clergy. He was like some "work from home" bishop. I just brought it up here to get some consensus.
Medicine and law? A baron? Prince? He got me fooled. By the way, if he was indeed a man of faith as he claims, he would have responded to me by now. :P
| QUOTE (collin_nunis @ Mar 16 2007, 11:35 PM) |
I didn't. One look and i knew it. No bishop who believes in married clergy will allow clergy to get married AFTER ordination. In keeping with what Paul said in 1 Timothy 3:4-5.
Besides, I knew something was wrong when it only talked about him. No parishes, no other clergy. He was like some "work from home" bishop. I just brought it up here to get some consensus.
Medicine and law? A baron? Prince? He got me fooled. By the way, if he was indeed a man of faith as he claims, he would have responded to me by now. :P |
Yea, he sounds like a special case that one!
| QUOTE (A Simple Sinner @ Mar 16 2007, 10:13 PM) |
The Catholic Apostolic National Church comes to mind as an exceptional example of this. Go check out their pictures...
Now before going on, I want to know where are the faithful? Where are the buildings? I mean buildings don't prove a vitality, but in order to buy and maintain one, the presense of tithing discipled faithful are most likely needed. So where are the bricks and mortars? The kindly pious old retired gent that shovels the snow and cuts the grass? The people who are fed and nourished in faith and growth in Christ? Well I can't find pictures or evidence of ANY of that at that website
I counted 32 pictures. Two were of altars in chapels NOT belonging to this church. One was a picture of Bishop Gubalas Episcopal throne. At the "preistly ordination of Andre' Queen" there were a total of 3 people who looked like they could be laity seated in an empty chapel. There appeared to be FIVE clerics.
Now the keen observer will scroll down and notice there are photographs of a certain Deacon Andre' Queen being ordained to the preisthood, six short photos later there are pictures of Bishop Andre' Queen standing next to a man HE just ordained a deacon. At the end you will see photographs of Bishop Queen addressing the Patrarch on "the state of the Church in the US" That is a meteoric rise to responsibility!
|
Well, from what i heard, the CCC/LIJ wanted to be in full communion with the Church in Brazil but not its counterpart in the US, which is the Catholic Apostolic National Church simply for the reasons you have just mentioned.
As a friend of mine said, they are tithe-crazy and they don't even have congregations to boot. He has the opinion that joining hands with the CANC would spell disaster for his flock. Which then, seems funny, because the CEC, since its inception, never entered into communion with the CANC.
| QUOTE (collin_nunis @ Mar 17 2007, 10:35 PM) |
Well, from what i heard, the CCC/LIJ wanted to be in full communion with the Church in Brazil but not its counterpart in the US, which is the Catholic Apostolic National Church simply for the reasons you have just mentioned.
As a friend of mine said, they are tithe-crazy and they don't even have congregations to boot. He has the opinion that joining hands with the CANC would spell disaster for his flock. Which then, seems funny, because the CEC, since its inception, never entered into communion with the CANC. |
I supposed.
I can't be bothered though.
I used to be fascinated by episcopi vagantes and ind. movements. Looking at them for over a deacade, I can't see anything but men (and occasionally women) with a lot of time and bandwith and disposable income for vestments, traveling to consecrations and website design.
At best a curiousity, at worst delusional, these bodies generally demonstrate not staying power and have no major contribution to the rest of the Christian world.
We need to keep this thread alive!!!!!!
Oh well, we leave them be... Let us not believe in new-fangled things.