Could someone post a history of the Charismatic Episcopal Church? Wikipedia has a very favorable assessment of the CEC, but lacks a history of it. Also, a search on google comes up with very little.

I have heard that it began when some charismatic ministers wanted a more liturgical faith, but am interested in what actually happened.

Thanks,
David

Hi David!

I found this on this website:

http://www.resurrectioncec.homestead.com/OurHistory.html

The Charismatic Episcopal Church Established

Organized in June 1992, the CEC originally consisted of three charismatic churches that had started blending charismatic worship with Episcopal liturgy. Leading them was A. Randolph Adler, pastor of the 200-member Stone Mountain Church, which is known now as St. Michael's

On June 26, 1992, the Most Rev. Randolph Adler, was consecrated as the first bishop and primate for the CEC. That date is officially recognized as the beginning of the Charismatic Episcopal Church.

I know of some story about Adler protesting an abortion clinic and ended up jailed with some RC clergy and this is what started his jouney into the liturgical church.

I wish I had more...but this is it for now.

Thanks!

St Hilary,

I am writing a short synopsis of the ICCEC using the "Making Visible a Void" tape series by Adler, other tapes, Sursum Cordas, the St Barnabas Treasures Old and New Conference in OKC and the Ministries Today and Charisma Magazine articles. It will be done this week sometime but I am requesting everyone send in anything they have to me via email or snail mail so we can gather a greater understanding of how this communion formed.

Respectfully,
Ken Follis

210-558-4696
P.O. Box 690873
San Antonio TX 78269-0873

"Non, Nobis Domine" by the then Canon Philip Weeks and Mr. Hugh Kaiser can also be referred to. I don't think its that credible a book but I guess we can still try.

What about the article on the Convergence Movement written by Wayne Boosahda and Randolph Sly for Robert Webber's Encyclopedia of Worship? The CEC, CEEC etc all started there...

The Wheel Reinvention Phenomenon
Ken Follis

When I first took the pastorate of a non-denominational Charismatic parish called The Living Church it was almost dead. There were just a handful of church members but after a year of introducing the Patristics to them the church breathed new life, changed its name to Christ Church and had grown to over a hundred members in a town of less than a 1000 residents. We had created an environment to begin a practice of the way of the Fathers. Now it was time to bring the bishop of the Charismatic Episcopal Church to speak so we could optimize all we had been learning. He came and spoke and met some resistance but did a phenomenal job at introducing the Convergence Movement and its trademark communion, the International Communion of Charismatic Episcopal Churches. The bishop talked in great length of the founding leader’s ordination and vision. Then a parishioner, a country boy, asked the bishop, “Well why can’t I just do the same? What is to stop me from going out and finding me someone who will make me a bishop?”

I knew the answer.

You have likely heard the rhetorical question,” Why reinvent the wheel?” This question is usually directed at folks who are doing something that has already been done and bears no need of being repeated if it even can be. For the question usually implies we are wasting our time and may actually be causing more destruction in our efforts at construction or reconstruction. I call this the Wheel Reinvention Phenomenon. After five years in the Charismatic Episcopal Church, I sensed that many of us were helping do just that. We were reinventing the wheel.

The following illustrates this phenomenon.

“The Charismatic Movement was the historical churches discovering the chrisms while the Convergence Movement is Charismatic Churches discovering history” Dr. Robert Webber The Worship Phenomenon

It was common in the Charismatic movement to see many individuals embrace a new denomination magnifying their newfound expression of faith. One very popular person who did this was the Roman Catholic lay evangelist Larry Tomzack who left the Catholic Church and started a Protestant denomination. Some former Baptist preachers who embraced the Pentecostal/ Charismatic movement and left their former denominations are Charles Simpson, Peter Wagner, Jack Deere, John Osteen, Dudley Hall, Rick Godwin, Jack Taylor and James Robison. There were even some, like Dr. Charles Stanley of In Touch Ministries who left the Pentecostal church to become Baptist. There have been many Pentecostal/ Charismatic who have joined the Presbyterian and Reformed Churches after learning about Calvinistic Reformed doctrines. A few examples of these are Gary North and David Chilton and a group known as the Tylerites. It was the teaching of Reconstruction that influenced them toward the more historic tradition.

After what became known as the Chicago Call in 1977 there were many who began to leave the Evangelical and Charismatic churches to become Episcopalian, Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, or some derivative. Some examples are Stan White, Robert Webber, Franky Schaeffer, Robert Wise, Mike Owen, Malcolm Smith, Randall Terry, Thomas Howard, Paul Thigpen and Dr. James Shelton. Each one was well known within Protestant circles. In the early 1990’s a small group of Pentecostal students at Oral Roberts University began a collective study that lead them to join the Eastern Orthodox Church. In the late 1980’s over a dozen churches and ministers associated with Bill Bright’s Campus Crusade for Christ collectively joined various Eastern Orthodox communions. Two of the most familiar were Charismatic authors Peter Gillquist and Jack Sparks. (http://www.wheaton.edu/bgc/archives/GUIDES/033.htm)

In 1973, former Campus Crusade for Christ leaders, Jon Braun and Peter Gillquist, formed the New Covenant Apostolic Order (N.C.A.O.). According to a report in Christianity Today, Jack Sparks left the Christian World Liberation Front (C.W.L.F.) in 1975 after complaints that his leadership was becoming too authoritarian. In February of 1979 the N.C.A.O. and its associated churches became the Evangelical Orthodox Church (E.O.C.). The founders ordained each other as bishops. However, beginning February 8, 1987, the need for Apostolic Succession led most members of the E.O.C. to join the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America where it was titled the Antiochian Evangelical Orthodox Mission (A.E.O.M.). Some parishes which did not join the Antiochians eventually joined the Orthodox Church in America (O.C.A.), while a few remain independent and still use the E.O.C. name. This lasted until 1995 when it was disbanded and the parishes put under the standard diocesan framework of the Archdiocese. The title “Evangelical” was dropped from the name and it became known as the Antiochian Orthodox Church (A.O.C.). In February of 1998, a schism occurred when a formerly A.E.O.M. parish in Ben Lomond, CA was defrocked by the A.O.C. when Father Weldon (John) Hardenbrook objected to changes taken place in the A.O.C.. This led to the creation of the Orthodox Christian Brotherhood (O.C.B.) which became affiliated with the Jerusalem Patriarchate. In October of 2003, in a history-making decision, the Holy Synod of Antioch unanimously approved a resolution which granted this Archdiocese the status of a self-ruling Archdiocese. Today, an estimated 350,000 faithful of the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America are served by five hierarchs and over four-hundred and fifty clergy in 238 churches throughout the United States and Canada.

There are other stories like the black Pentecostal pastor, Alex Jones, who brought his whole congregation into the Roman Catholic Church and Assemblies of God missionaries Marilyn Kramner and Kenneth Bernard who entered the Catholic Church as well, the latter only to become a priest. One of the most interesting stories of these conversions is that of Rosalind Moss, a Jewish lady who was converted to Christianity through Jews for Jesus and went on staff with, and was discipled by, pastor/ author John MacArthur, a rabid anti-Charismatic and staunch anti-Catholic pastor in California. MacArthur authored the first among many anti-Charismatic books called “Charismatic Chaos”. It was after reading ecclesiastical history that Rosalind became more and more convinced that both the Roman Catholic Church and the Charismatic movement were divinely inspired. She is now one of the foremost apologists for the Roman Catholic Church working for Catholic Answers (www.Catholic.com).

Toward the middle of the 1990’s many Convergence groups began to take shape and be recognized with the revelation of these more famous conversions to new denominations. One such group was the Charismatic Episcopal Church (C.E.C.) started by the former Baptist named A. Randolph Adler. Adler was raised Baptist but was introduced to the Pentecostal/ Charismatic denominations where he met his Church of God wife, Betty. His mentors were Delmar Robinson and Bill Hamon. He later was influenced by the Tylerites and embraced Reformed theology and began an association with other Charismatic leaders of like faith such as David Chilton, Ken Myers, Joe Moates, Gene Lilly and Bill Hamon. He declared that in 1989 God showed him that the Roman Catholic Church was right with having liturgy, sacraments, signs and symbols. Eventually, after hearing the Chicago Call and prophetic words from Bill Hamon, Peter Gilguist, Jon Braun, and Jack Hayford he decided to form a new denomination with only three churches. It was not long after this time that an article about him in a Charismatic publication called Ministries Today gave him much notoriety where he was able to add around 150 churches within three years. The article was called “Ancient Altars and Pentecostal Fire”. It was written by popular Charismatic author Paul Thigpen who would later convert to the Roman Catholic Church. Of note, in his first major conflict as a new denominational leader, one of his churches and priest Dr. Robert Wise, a well known Charismatic author and psychologist, left the C.E.C. in 1996 to help establish a group called the Evangelical Episcopal Church. The issue that catapulted this crisis was a push for the C.E.C. to accept women’s ordination for which they did not. However just what would the C.E.C. accept as doctrine, purpose and practice remained a chief concern in their early years and still exists today? Let’s read the transcript of an audiotape once offered by the C.E.C. called “Making Visible a Void!”

The following dialogue was set at Christ the King Church in Phoenix, AZ with then Pastor Rick Painter. Painter would later bring his church into the Charismatic Episcopal Church (C.E.C.) and be ordained a priest. Painter was made a bishop but has recently withdrawn his diocese from the C.E.C. over a scandal by the founder A. Randolph Adler. In this recording, Adler is giving a series of talks (later to be called “Making Visible a Void”) in an effort to help this non-denominational, evangelical and charismatic church understand the “new move of God.” In the introductory tape Adler states that he is a prophet with a ministry of Jeremiah Chapter 1, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I dedicated you, a prophet to the nations I appointed you…This day I set you over nations and over kingdoms, To root up and to tear down, to destroy and to demolish, to build and to plant.” The following is from the Question and Answer section after the Mysterium Tremendum teaching session between the teacher Randy Adler and Dan Sierra, a member at the church:

Sierra: My name is Dan Sierra, I was up at 3 o’clock in the morning and I was reading my Handbook for Today’s Catholic-this little book they gave us when I was going through Confirmation in the Roman Catholic Church. There is a lot of neat stuff in there; I haven’t looked at this thing in 8 years. When I was looking through this, I said, “Hey, I believe this! I believe that!” But there were things in there that I didn’t believe, like the Assumption of Mary and things like that. I was wondering if you had any insight as to …do you think that the Roman Catholics will ever get rid of that part of it (i.e. doctrines)? I mean, [/I]. I’m glad that everything is based…
Adler: No, I don’t think that they ever will. What I think is that- you really need to be aware that I know some things that God has shown me in the Spirit and has been very much confirmed by prophets and things. We are not saying, “Go back to the Catholic Church! See, when the Reformation took place, the Reformation was needed because the Catholic Church was really in bad shape.
Sierra: Is the Roman Catholics….are they the only ones who worship Mary out of all the Orthodox churches?
Adler: No, the Orthodox Church has a very different view of Mary…and they say that Mary is the Theotokos- she’s the bearer of God. Theotokos means “God-bearer”. We should have a high view and veneration of Mary, not adoration. Adoration is saved for God. Veneration is like you when you venerate your grandmother. She walks in a room and then you stand. We should have a high view of Mary because she is the prime example of the Christ-bearer and now we are Christ-bearers. We bear Christ in us. She carried Christ in her, and now we carry Christ in us. So she is the picture of the Church. Now when they (Roman Catholics) talk about the Assumption of Mary, if you understand the Feast of the Assumption in the historical way, it is a celebration of the “catching away” (a.k.a. Rapture) of the Church and the Church being crownedthat doctrine has been perverted over the years. So the Roman Church, I don’t think will ever change, the Bride of Christ. But but I think what is happening…think about it this way,” There was a reformation. The Church went through this period of needing reformation-the Catholic Church. In the 1500’s there was a reformation, now 500 years down the road the Church needs a new reformation. It needs to be brought back into being One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. So I think that’s what the CEC is. He was an about. I don’t think you’re going to find what you’re looking for in the Roman Church. In fact, the Roman Church, after this Pope (John Paul II) dies, will probably fragment tremendously. Because he is a Godly man and I don’t think that they’re going to replace him with another Godly man. I think they want to move toward a more liberal position and if that happens, it will fragment, but don’t worry because God is raising up _________ (?), and I believe the CEC is one of them. In fact, there was an Orthodox monk that gave a prophecy in 1890. He was a Russian Orthodox monk. He said, “In the 1990’s on the West Coast of the United States, God is going to raise a group of people that are going to understand the blending of the charismatic gifts, evangelical preaching and the sacraments of the church.” Father Peter Gillquist and another Orthodox priest named Jon Braun told me one time, in my office, “We believe the Charismatic Episcopal Church is what that monk saw 100 years ago because he prophesied in the 1990’s that on the West Coast this would happen”. So we believe the C.E.C. has an appointment with destiny to bring back these three streams- to make the church evangelical, charismatic and sacramental all at the same time. Because it (the Church) does not have to be either/ or. People criticize me about becoming liturgical. I say to them I did not give anything, I’m still halabashacotaraba. I still speak in tongues. I still praise God! I still have a personal relationship with Christ. I just added to my faith. I changed my Sunday morning service. My Wednesday night service is the same as it has always been. It is a charismatic Bible study. Are you with me?
Someone in the audience: Could you just qualify that Father Peter Gillquist and Father Jon Braun that they are not Protestants?
Adler: No, they are Orthodox priests. Father Jon Braun and Father Peter Gillquist used to be with Campus Crusade, and Father Peter Gillquist was the head of Thomas Nelson Publishing, and they went on this journey, and now there were 17 churches in Campus Crusade that went into the Orthodox Church and Peter Gillquist now is the priest in the Orthodox Church … the Antiochian Orthodox Church. But he told us… and this is off the record, he said “you shouldn’t become Orthodox”, we were on our journey- he was helping us, he said “God wants to raise up a church in the United States,” and he said, "I think the C.E.C. is it, and what he wants you guys to have is 20 thousand churches with 20 million members in 20 years."
Someone in the audience: Wow!
Adler: Then he wants you to stand up and say “We are the Orthodox Catholic Church of the West”. If you watched the TV program yesterday, Dan Scott was saying, “There has never been an American Church. Everything in the church we have is brought over from Europe. See, we call ourselves the Charismatic Episcopal Church, but we’re not Anglican! I’m not English! Angland (England) Anglican, and that’s English, I’m not English and I’m not Roman! I’m not Italian! I’m an American! There’s never been an American Catholic Faith. And we believe the vision of the Catholic Church is 20,000 churches with 20 million members in 20 years to stand up and say we are the church of the west. I think that could happen very easily, but I’m thinking 20,000 churches with 20 million members is a little short though. I’m thinking 50,000 churches with 50 million members.

(Dan Sierra, his wife and 8 children are now in the Orthodox Church. He saw the Wheel Reinvention Phenomenon before most of us did.)

Adler believes the "new" movement is the new Reformation that will cause the restoration of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, a church that had been lost since the Great Reformation. Additionally, he believes the C.E.C. is the first real American church and that he has been divinely appointed to be founder of the Orthodox Catholic Church of the West representing the fullness of the Catholic and Orthodox churches. However, he and the I.C.C.E.C. are not Anglican Catholic or Roman Catholic but Brazilian Catholic. How does that square with the fact that the Brazilian Catholic Church has completely disaffiliated itself from the C.E.C.? One has to wonder if a South American church, like the Brazilian Catholic Church, qualifies as an American Catholic Church. The last I looked the Brazilians were Americans. They preceeded the C.E.C. by half a century.

Is Adler really a prophet? The answer is “True or False”. Did a monk really prophesy about the C.E.C.? This is certainly open to interpretation; you’d have to ask the monk whom they claim said it. Is the C.E.C. going to have 20,000 churches by 2012? You have to wonder with the way things have transpired as to whether credible folks like Braun and Gillquist really told Adler what he heard. If they did, in fact, believe this then why would they not join this new move of God and bring their 20 parishes into the C.E.C.? When asked about this Fr. Peter says he has zero recollection of such a statement. One priest who knows him told me cannot conceive of Fr. Peter ever saying such. He stated, "It just ain't 'Gilquist.'" Could Adler be "evangel-astically" speaking, as we say here in Texas about evangelists who exaggerate claims of splendor and express dreams of grandeur? Yes. Do Roman Catholics worship Mary? No. Does the Roman Catholic Church have a different view of Mary than the Eastern Orthodox Church? No. Will the C.E.C. be THE church of the West- both Orthodox and Catholic as he proclaims? No. Is Pope Benedict an un-Godly man whom Adler is much more suited to replace?

What is really sad is there are some who really believed this and some who still do. In all practicality, the C.E.C. is no different than the Evangelical Episcopal Church which actually preceded the founding of the C.E.C. by a lady named Joy Charity. There have been many other groups who have capitalized upon the three streams uniting. While there may truly be a Convergence Movement, any modern denominational or institutional monopolizing is futile. As you study history, you will see that "time after time" there has been "group after group" who has attempted to recreate the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. So why try to reinvent the wheel and continue to splinter the Body of Christ?

I must admit that even now I feel duped by him and can only say it was my young impressionable age and immaturities that lead me to believe this could have ever been so. I’d like to share with you the dialogue between Adler and the next person who questioned him that day. After Adler answered Sierra, who was a former Roman Catholic, another former Roman Catholic member of Christ the King Church came to the microphone and shared what would perhaps be a prophetic insight:

Caroline Talley: What we (former Roman Catholics) have been going through (as Protestants) is like what we see with ethnic and racial prejudices in the world. When I became a part of the Pentecostal/ Charismatic movements, I had to give up… and I could not say many things that are in my heart that I have known since my childhood that were real, very real. One of those things has been the teaching on Mary…the prayer that goes through my head, the song Ave Maria Grazia will not leave me. I know and I knew as a Catholic-Roman Catholic that I did not worship Mary nor did I worship statues. There is a prejudice that comes into this just as I was prejudice against A.A. Allen and people who scream when they preach because I did not see the dignity of the Lord. So we have so much to learn from one another and I have learned more in this church about my truth received as a Roman Catholic and do not want to throw anymore away.

Christ invented the wheel in AD 33 and it doesn’t need to be rebuilt. I suspect any work of the Holy Spirit in the Convergence Movement will be to connect all believers as spokes into that one hub wherein is the See of St. Peter- the Ezekiel “wheel within the wheel”. (Ezek 1:19-21; 10:9)

Lord, make us one. (Actually He already has. His John 17 Prayer was answered just a few days after He prayed it. It is up to us to be a spoke connected to the the Hub)

Can you maybe convert that into a CD or something and send it to me? I'll give you my address once you're ok with it.

Collin

Mr. Follis

That should be posted on the main forum as well. I don't believe most who are member in the CEC would agree with post reformation thinking!

ev :blink: :blink:

Mr. Bennett

Wikapedia is not a valid source for information. Anyone can post anything to wikapedia. You don't have to be an authority to post on Wikapedia. They will allow most anyone to post to it. I'd suggest that if you rely heavily on Widapedia you should certainly change your source.

ev :blink: :blink:

Episcopi,
I understand Wikipedia is often a bad source of info, although I find that on topics that get visited a lot, and have a lot of folks who care about the topic at hand, they generally are fairly accurate. However, one has to maintain a critical eye.

The CEC entry is very rosy and idealistic, and very short. Someone from here needs to go over and make it a little more accurate and provide some history. The Wikipedia entry gives little info about when the CEC was founded and in what context, etc.

David

I volunteer Ken Follis to do that little job....lol

ev :blink: :blink:

Timeline of the ICCEC's True Foundation:

http://www.iccec.org/iccecnews/sursumcorda...012_02-1_03.pdf

1973- Adler, who had been raised a Baptist, begins his ministry in the Church of God (Cleveland TN) denomination in Orlando, Florida after getting out of the Army. In California, a Nazarene pastor who had received the gift of tongues in the Charismatic Movement, leaves the Church of the Nazarene and starts a house church in San Juan Capistrano.

1976- Apostle Bill Hamon moves his Christian International Bible College from San Antonio TX to Phoenix AZ.

1977- Adler leaves the COG and starts an independent Charismatic church in Florida.

1980- Adler moves from Orlando, FL to Orange County, CA and builds the non-denominational charismatic Faith Community Church. It is during this time he is exposed to the Personal Prophesy/ Latter Rain movements while being mentored under Bill Hamon.

1984- Bill Hamon moved to Florida. Pastor-Prophet Adler and his Apostle Dr. Robert Mueller merge congregations in San Clemente CA to form Stone Mountain Church.

1985- Adler embraces Reconstructionism of the Tylerites and other Reformed Theologies. He starts having weekly communion.

1987- Dr. Robert Mueller, who had joined the Independent Assemblies of God International and had moved to El Toro, California, USA participates in Center for Union with the Rome (http://www.prounione.urbe.it/index_hi_res.html). Vinson Synan, David Duplessis and Earl Paulk

1989- Adler and Stone Mountain Church get involved for one year in Operation Rescue. This is when he is confronted with the need for liturgy, sign, symbols and Sacraments.

1989- Bill Hamon is consecrated Bishop over all his CI churches to include Stone Mountain Church.

1989-Adler begins wearing clerical collar and baptizing infants.

1990- Adler begins implementing the historical liturgy into his Charismatic worship with direction from an Episcopal priest friend. Attendance at the church is around 200. The core of Mueller’s congregation still remained.

1992- Episcopal priest friend encourages Adler to be ordained via Apostolic Succession. He seeks out nearby Bishop Timothy Barker and is ordained.

2003- Dr. Mueller passed away (April 14)

(Sources are needing to be confirmed)

Hi:

Well certainly informative bit of history...quite dry as sometimes history can seem to be and quite incomplete. The story of the CEC is not just this dry bit of facts about its founder but also a story of people from all walks of life and religious backgrounds who for varied reasons identified with this particular movement.

The history of the CEC to me is also the history of my parish which began with 2 familes in love with the idea of a church where the catholic, charismatic and evangelical could be fully expressed. A story that includes growth, baptisms, first communions, our first youth group , weddings, our first funeral. A story of triumphs, dissapointments and hope in the lives of those who in the last 10 years have become part of the CEC in our parish. There have been moments where we have so felt the presence f God in the worship , preaching, the sacraments, other times when drymess and routine or crisis seemd to be the order of the day. Some have come , others have gone, but even now there is still an excitement every time we celebrate the Eucharist and a rejoicing for the freedoms we have learned in the CEC...! It still seems lovely despite all the human dysfunction, the humble or suspect origins And in all of that God is somehow at work leading people to a closer relationship with him.

Careful not to confuse history with just these few facts you posted...it is never the whole truth nor how God may view it. It certainly has nothing to do with the "history of the CEC" as perceived in our parish or diocese....! Our story is filled with all the joys and sorrows of people, who despite flaws are looking to worship God in Spirit and Truth. That history trumps these dry facts and may yet be the story that will in the end be told about the CEC.

Respectfully

M

Hi - my name is Claymore...and I've been free of the CEC now for 37 days.

FYI-The history of the CEC on Wikipedia has been updated by Ken Myers II.

Hi Claymore:

I'm sorry your experience in the CEC was less than uplifting...it can be so . In no way does this post minimize your difficulties in the CEC nor the real issues this community has to address... here are a couple of comments from a different perspective.

I know people from many denominational backgrounds who would probably relate to your "being free" post, having experienced loss and careless or abusive pastoral oversight. Yet no pastor or parish or Bishop defines the totality of a communion. Many people experienced sexual abuse while childen or teens in the RCC yet, our RC brethren are quick to point out that is not the whole church. The same for refugess from Charismatic or Pentecostal groups who have felt manipulated or controlled by spiritually abusive leadership.

You do have to be aware that others in the CEC feel that here we have shed some chains we felt bound us either to the world or the churches we had previously attended. It is funny a particular person's freedom can end up being another person's jail.

It has also been my experience that it is frecuently those who make "submission to authority" a priority as they enter a church, without healthy questionings and boundaries are the ones who end up feeling more "bound" in whatever community they choose. No one can chain you unless you are willing to give up some of your own freedoms, including the right to form your own concience and speak your mind when appropiate.

Perhaps the worse plage I have seen in the CEC is the myriad of "yes" people, so willing to "stand by" the bishop, "trust" the leaders rather than engage honestly in the process of being a Church. That sometimes includes disagreements and conflicts. It is these very well intentioned people who are the most hurt when abusive authority turns on them or they finally realize they were played or deceived. I am not suggesting that was your situation but it is one I have seen repeatedly in the CEC .

Coming from a very vocal parish...we have often felt the "waves" but never felt chained.

Good luck in finding a new home and beware the chains...just dont put them on!

Blessings

M

Conversly,.. the CEC has been free of you for 37 days. ;) ...sorry dude, you left yourself wide open for that one!

What we don't need at this point is are sensless attacks. We need healing, prayer and the opportunity for Our Lord's will to prevail in this! Its not difficult to see why our other forum has been put on hold for a few days. To a point I have read your posts with interest but if this is all you have left then my interest can certainly be focused elsewhere. Have a great day Claymore, may you be Blessed with His Love & Grace!


Roy

In reference to the history of the CEC...

A few years ago, my wife and I wrote an instructional book for people interested in the CEC. We call it River Life: Who We Are and How We Live. On my parish website I have a sample which includes the full Preface, Intro, and Chapter 1. Or you can just click here and pull it up directly.

As with any living organism that is constantly changing, I realize some of the statistics need to be revised. The numbers I reported at the time of writing were obtained from Abp. Sly.

Oh Roy,

I have many other things to say. I am waiting for a forum to open up again where I may reveal more. I am in the healing and recovery stage at this point, having been one who viewed submission to spiritual authority very seriously and when I realized my bishop had no concern or care for me as an individual - even in simple consideration of others - THAT is when I opened my eyes (or had them opened - whichever you prefer).

Not wanting to be mean, I am biding m y time until I am comfortable revealing things.

Stay tuned. Claymore may yet come "out of the closet".

The Claymore has not yet really begun to sing!

Hi: Just for a recap....

"those who make "submission to authority" a priority as they enter a church, without healthy questionings and boundaries are the ones who end up feeling more "bound" in whatever community they choose...."

"It is these very well intentioned people who are the most hurt when abusive authority turns on them or they finally realize they were played or deceived.."

I prefer....had them opened typically that is what happens. And just as a reminder;

"No one can chain you unless you are willing to give up some of your own freedoms, including the right to form your own concience and speak your mind when appropiate."...yes even to bishops in the CEC.

Your post makes me wonder if you are a Southeast province survivor. But hey, some things seem to be creeping from your closet... :ph43r: I may be wrong but it sounds like; You were not Episcopalian or Baptist before coming to the CEC, you must have read Watchman Nee and taken him seriously and... are very definitely not hispanic.

Blessings

M

HI...SORRY ...THIS WAS MY POST AND I FORGOT TO PUT NAME...! Here it is again...!

Hi:

Claymore...sing away! This is just a bit of recap!

"those who make "submission to authority" a priority as they enter a church, without healthy questionings and boundaries are the ones who end up feeling more "bound" in whatever community they choose...."

"It is these very well intentioned people who are the most hurt when abusive authority turns on them or they finally realize they were played or deceived.."

I prefer....had them opened; typically that is what happens. And just as a reminder;

"No one can chain you unless you are willing to give up some of your own freedoms, including the right to form your own concience and speak your mind when appropiate."...yes even to bishops in the CEC.

The warm up to your song makes me wonder if you are a Southeast province survivor. But hey, some things seem to be creeping from your closet... I may be wrong but it sounds like; You were not Episcopalian or Baptist before coming to the CEC, you may have read Watchman Nee and taken him seriously and... are very definitely not hispanic.

Blessings

M

Very good seraph. Close on all counts.

I started out in the SE province some almost 11 years ago. I'm actually ex-clergy from north of there now.

I was raised in ECUSA. high church.

I was actually married the first time in a Baptist church. Didn't last long. (either the Baptist thing or the marriage]

Nope. Read St Paul's epistles and took HIM very seriously.

Correct.

When I do come out, it will be from a quarter that is supposedly "solid", and it may be unexpected. I was simply stuck in a co-dependent state (which was basically counted on for loyalty) and could not leave (thinking God was telling me to stay) until the current crisis flared up and I saw my bishop for who he really was, and the CEC for what it truly is.

There is much that was great about the CEC, no doubt. But the key word is "was".

Without a structure, and without accountability except using the currency of cigars and scotch, it was doomed from the start.

Had the men ion charge -- in the face of a great struggle -- truly remained on thier face in prayer (as was originially told me about HOB several years ago, which is what drew me) it may have had a chance. I see that chance having left now. The choice was to revell in the newly experienced "freedoms" to the neglect of serious spiritual work and struggle.

Enuf for now.

Pax.

SC

Hi:

I am very sorry about you experience truly and of course am very aware and concerned about the state of the CEC. I would hope though all is not dead....there are still loving faithful people and parishes that may exemplify the best ideals of the CEC. Even for 50 sincere....or was it righteous people God told Abraham he wouldnot destroy Sodom. I would like to believe there is at least tha many just in my parish.

I completely agree with some of this ...more clergy and laity oversight and definite structures that require all to be accountable is needed. I could not care less about scotch and cigars but the "good old boys mentality" that can imply certainly is no help to the Church.

It does not seem by the outcome of things so far that prayer was all that happened in the HOB. Yet maybe it is not the prayer they did not do, but the other things they did and should not have or did not do and should have...what has brought our present crisis. Hard to say...we are not in their shoes! Yet with Christ there is always a chance for confession , repentance and renewal....we all fail many times.

Because I have seen plenty of sacrifice, serious spiritual work and struggle by many in the CEC and my parish in particular I can not see the Lord utterly abandon the many for the apparent neglect of a few shepperds...he can always replace those! Granted the CEC needs to be forever changed or it may die...God knows and time will tell. I for one am betting on mercy!

Blessings

M