Good Morning,

Here is a site from a comment by Rick Lord for Holy Comforter Episcopal Church in Vienna, VA. I have know Rick Lord since the late 70's early 80's when I was part of Church of the Apostle's in Fairfax and I say amen to what he just wrote on his site. Thank You Rick Lord. I find the Pope's remark very devisive. Lord In Your Mercy Hear our Prayer. I think JP II would not have done this........


http://holycomforter.typepad.com/


Tony :wub:

Hi Tony,

I have to admit that I do not agree with you here. I think that the media spin has far more to do with the controversy than the actual remarks themselves -- and we've seen in the past how the media has distorted this Pope in the past. (Remember the Muslim quote that was taken so hideously out of context in Germany?)

I have a great deal of respect for Fr. Lord, and for those who have remained faithful in the Episcopal church -- but sadly, they are a rapidly shrinking minority. The actions of many of the Anglican provinces and churches worldwide must bear -- MUST bear -- the responsibility for the failure of the Anglican/Catholic dialog.

Pope John Paul the Great would have phrased things differently perhaps -- but would not have disagreed.

Blessings,

PS -- You have been in my prayers.

David,

Thanks for you remarks...... But the thing that really get's me burning is when I hear like I did from one the Pilgrims on a Trip who said

"We Catholics are the only ones right and Everyone else is wrong"

"You can't be Catholic and Democrat either"

That sounds very judge and jury to me. The one thing I am striving for is staying away from the pointing the finger mentality. When we point the finger at any one we have 3 point back at ourselves.

David, I am sorry if I sound a bit hot but I am sick and tired of the "they are wrong and we are right" mentality. I am trying so hard to stay away from that Judge and jury type of attitude.

Am I missing something here?

Thanks for your forum,

I really do appreciate it, David...

Lots of love Tony :wub:

My time to write is very short, so this may sound blunt but is not intended that way.

This statement by Fr. Lord is the one that gives me great pause:
Whenever we put the institution of the Church as the primary agency of human salvation, we disregard the essential priority of Jesus' life and teaching which is the full availability of God's loving reign for all people.

Now I am not here to claim the Holy Father did the best he could have or, did not do the best he could have.
What I am posting about is the above statement.
It seems to me to be a statement that contradicts itself, and is theologically unsound and unsafe.

The institution of the Church, is, to my simple mind, the Kingdom of God, as such, it is, the primary agency of salvation, we are all saved, in one way or another, through the Church.
The essential priority of Jesus life and teaching is about the Kingdom of God, its about re-uniting man to God through His life, He is the King of the Kingdom, which is The real Israel, commonly called the Church or the Ecclesia.
Gods loving reign is over the Church which is the Kingdom of Christ the King.

It makes no sense at all to me that we can make claim too many kingdoms, to each his own, so forth and so on.
There is but one divine will and work of God, one mission, one purpose.
Jesus said to the disciples: "As the Father sent me, so I send you".

This statement needs great meditation these days.

The mission of Jesus, is the same today as it was then, our mission is the same today as it was then.
The reason, within the Godhead, of Jesus coming to us, is the same reason the Apostles were sent, and that we are all sent, the sending is the same as far as ultimate divine purpose.
"As the Father sent me, so I, send you".

In the Greek, this is most interesting to me, it means “in the same continuation, with the same marching orders for the exact same purpose"

There is but one divine purpose, the relationship we were created for, created to.

One cannot separate the work of Christ from the institution of the Church, no matter what we say or try to do,
If it is the work of God, it is tied to and about, the Kingdom, the Church.
I do not have time to elaborate right now, but suffice it to say, in my opinion, when we think on these things; we need to understand who and what the Church is, as well as what it is not.

I will say that, in my opinion, the wounds of the Church are on all sides, no branch, or lung, or wing of the Church is without wound.

Anytime we use that language for what has happened within the body of Christ, we need to understand that all parts become part of that wound.

If I cut my foot badly, it affects my whole life, my whole body.

David recently had double knee surgery, I am sure he can attest to the fact that this affected his whole life, his whole body.

All doctors know this, and so does/should the Church.
If Orthodoxy is wounded, so is blessed Rome and all of the New Mankind within the kingdom of God.

We cannot, and will not, be who we are called and who we are being transformed to be, completely, in reality, as long as we are divided.
We are, really, a new mankind, the descendants of a New Adam, the second one, the Christ.

Alas, we seem so prone to going back to the traditions of the descendants of the first Adam and the life of the Kingdom of the fallen ones.

Salvation is through the Church, it is the institution through which God reaches out to us, through the Son, and the power of the Holy Spirit.
The Church is the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of Christ, the Body of Christ, it is now, it is forever.

Got to run, I am so late.

Rusty+

QUOTE (Guest @ Jul 13 2007, 10:54 AM)
Document Released By Pope Stirs Catholic Controversy
By Father Jonathan Morris

Click on the URL below for the rest of this story:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,288976...nc.foxfan/blogs

A better explanation, I believe.

Tony, You ARE judging those who are faithful to Catholic teaching, which says:

"Jesus established here on earth only one Church and instituted it as a visible and spiritual community that from its beginning and throughout the centuries has always existed and will always exist, and in which alone are found all the elements that Christ himself instituted. […] This Church, constituted and organised in this world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the successor of Peter and the Bishops in communion with him."

Of course a Protestant wouldn't like that. But if the Pope isn't the head of the church, if he's just the leader of some denomination, why does Rick Lord even care what he thinks? Rick Lord's statements aren't relevant to me. I'm not an Episcopalian.

Oh, and here's what the Orthodox say:

For centuries, the Orthodox Church has preserved the correct teaching about death, judgment, and the afterlife. That teaching is complex but may be summarized in a few points:
1. All souls will stand before Christ at a final judgment.
2. Souls not saved by the Orthodox Christian Faith, repentance, Holy Baptism, a life in the Church, and good works will be condemned, together with the devil and his angels, to the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14) and to everlasting separation from God.
3. Souls characterized by the Orthodox Christian Faith, repentance, Holy Baptism, a life in the Church, and good works will be saved but also will be judged according to their deeds.

Neither of these groups blindly condemns people to hell, but they do say they are the true Church. Sorry that's not politically correct, but if people don't like it, they can start their own religion, just like Henry VIII, who repudiated papal authority, just like his offspring, Rick Lord. You shouldn't be surprised that an Anglican is balking at the Pope. They've been doing that for 500 years.


Guest,

I just sounds to me I am hearing we are right and everyone is wrong. For me that is a bit to in your face just like other groups have done and will continue to do. Anyway I am just trying to live and goood Christian and Catholic as best I can.
Let us all just remember the Jesus Prayer.

"Lord Jesus Christ Son of God Have mercy on me a sinner."

On another side note I don't believe Jesus is just coming back for the Roman Catholic Church either so I guess I must be missing something here. Shame on me for being human

P.S. I am trying to understand so please be patient with me I am new to this whole Catholic thing...........


Tony

I join with David in saying that the Pope hasn't said anything new here. The Catholic Church has always claimed to be the one, true Church, with other ecclesial communities having varying relationships with her.

While I understand Tony's reaction to those who appear almost bigoted in their rhetoric, I would ask this question- what is Truth? Do we really want truth, or are we content to wander in ambivalence?

Our Lord Jesus Christ is Truth! He has given us the Spirit of Truth to guide the Church into all Truth. Therefore, if we believe in what Jesus said, and we believe in the power of the Holy Spirit to do what He came for, then we must believe that there is one, true Church that goes all the way back to Christ in an unbroken line. Only the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church are candidates here. All the others are late comers by at least 1500 years.

The Church that was true from the beginning does not cease being so because large segments disagree with her and separate. This is not about democracy or diplomacy. Therefore the Pope is right to insist that the one, true Church subsists in the Catholic Church and to call all other communities into ongoing dialogue for the purpose of reunificaiton.

I guess I would add here, too...what we say in the creed...

"I believe in ONE holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church..."

There is but one...

The Catholic church didn't start the divisiveness. IMHO

Today's Akron Beacon Journal had an article by columnist Terry Pluto, regarding this very topic. Pluto is a sports writer who writes a column for the weekly religion section. He is Protestant. I thought it was an interesting perspective.

Here's the link: article on Pope's statements

I agree. A very interesting perspective.

TS, thanks for sharing that article. One thing for sure this latest statement and others of recent note have created a lot of debate and a lot of constructive interaction amongst Christians.

Mike,

Did you take a look at some of the web sites posted by "Guest" on the On Our Way forum. That's about as far against Catholicism as one can get I believe, some pretty wild accusations against Rome to say the least! :o

As I said before and to agree with you, this at least has brought us into conversation again, interesting reading to say the least.


Roy

Did anyone happen to notice the different uses of upper case and lower case in reference to the word "Church" in the most recent document?
I tend to think it is quite deliberate and helps to bring clarity to some issues.
There is a difference between particular Churches and churches.

As I talk too many these days on this subject, I am so aware that Protestants and Catholics do not mean the same thing, at all, when using the word Church.
Rusty+

Fr. Rusty,

You make an excellent point here.

Blessings,

Look, the Holy Father said nothing new, as has been stated before. Furthermore, what he DID say was MILD compared to how the same thing USED to be said. I mean, there WAS a time was it was put very bluntly: "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus." "Outside the Church there is no salvation." And, trust me, that meant the visible Catholic Church under the Pope, the Bishop of Rome.
Frankly, I don't understand why some Protestant blogs are full of comments of such outrage and dismay. I mean, Protestants don't believe the Pope IS the Vicar of Christ anyway, so why should it bother them so much? UNLESS...unless they really, really do have a sneaking suspicion that there might just be something to all this "Thou art Peter the Rock and upon this Rock I will build My Church" stuff. Hmmm?
And really, the utter comedy of an Episcopalian minister accusing the Pope of divisiveness! When the Episcopalians have pretty much gone over to total apostasy and heresy. Talk about divisive!!
By the by...the Holy Father did not say all the non Catholic groups were hell-bound heretics; he just said they were not real churches. Doesn't mean they are not Christian fellowships, which is how I see them. It doesn't mean there are not lovely, Christ-centered individuals among them either. But, for too long there have been muddy waters in Catholic-Protestant-Orthodox relations, many folks of all groups just sauntering along as if we were all one great big happy Christian Soup. We are not. There are serious differences between us.
What I find really funny in all this is, that some of the outraged Protestant/Evangelicals over the Pope's statements are the same ones that often question whether we Catholics are ourselves even Christians! But boy they're damned offended if we suggest THEY might have some defects. I was going to say, if the fire's too hot in the kitchen, get out...but they did, in the 1500s.
As for myself, I have pretty much just given up on ecumenical relations and trying to work with "separated brethren". In my experience, things just become too mushy theologically and it's we Catholics who are expected to give up the most. So, now...all the Protestants can do their thing, the Orthodox can do theirs, and we can focus on our own issues as Catholics. If there is accidental goodwill and mutual sharing in some goodworks as sidelines, OK, but it's not really an issue for this Catholic any more.

We must remember to be the good Samaritan.
We are to be the good neighbor, not ask, who is my neighbor.
For while we were yet enemies, Christ Came to us.
Christ Jesus was/is the good neighbor, the Samaritan was the good neighbor, let us remember to do likewise, no matter how we are treated.
We should be a good neighbor even to our enemies.
The Protestants that do not understand what the Kingdom is, are doing the only thing they can do, Protest.
What else could they possibly do?
If they agreed with the Holy Father as to the nature of the Church, well, they would not be Protestants would they.
Just my thoughts.

Rusty+

I now refer to my religious affiliation as OHCAC, which according to the Pope's "Jesus is Lord!" document of 07/07 encompasses the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics. In a particular way, the Protestants are in there too.


So this is the real definition of Convergence and the Thream Streams coming together like a MIGHTY RIVER. The Protestants will quit protesting Rome but still refute the evils they see while the Orthodox let Mass be in Latin and allow the filioque clause while resubmitting to the first chair making the Romans all the better for it- letting the Orthodox lead the way of orthodoxy in some liberal "Catholic" institutions and seeing the Protestants on the vanguard for change in Biblical readership and adherance.

The original definition of Convergence was too limited, coming out of Adler's Protestant paradigm (God bless him regardless.)